Does language obsolescence concern you?
Why does it matter if a language becomes moribund? Is something lost with the loss of a language?
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I do belive something is lost, but I’d say there are more pressing concerns in the world: war, poverty, disease, etc. In the grand scheme of things, keeping languages alive is not what I’d call a priority.
As a linguist-in-training, it does bother me a bit. I don’t like to see languages go. And I’m glad that people are preserving languages. Hebrew went from a religious-only language that no one spoke to an official language of Israel. Latin may have no native speakers, but it is still being taught in schools around the world. I don’t like seeing languages disappear. I feel like a bit of history and culture dies when that happens.
You believe, Bob, that the struggles against war, poverty, disease, and language death are discrete? I think that they are inextricably linked. How much ancient knowledge of medicinal uses of endemic flora, for example, is being lost with indigenous tongues? There is a reason why pharmaceutical companies hire linguistic anthropologists.
Given the grossly inappropriate way in which resources are allotted, I think that their finite nature is hardly the issue (and moreover, I’m not sure how it pertains to this discussion).
@La_Guerrera_Mas_Funki Let me put it this way: if I had a million dollars to spare, I’d donate it to Doctors without borders, not to Linguists without borders.
@bob_ Fair enough, but doctors without borders needs people well-versed in local languages and customs in order to best assist a population. This is why organizations such as Partners in Health are far superior to organizations such as the Red Cross :)
What kind of obsolescence? Something like Frisian, or old High German,or Phoenician? Or Sanskrit or Aramaic or vernacular Latin? Languages that are part of historical usage as peoples changed and merged identity? Or the constant obsolescence of words in a living language that are offset by the constant creation of new words or new uses for old words?
I think the process is lovely, a living thing. And there will always be scholars among us who try to preserve the dead languages.
Or do mean something like the “deterioration” of a tongue as the French guard against so zealously?
I love words and language evolves just as cultures of the world do.
@anartist Certainly nothing is static. I do not suffer from that absurd prescriptivist delusion. I am talking about rapid language loss due to linguistic hegemony.
@La_Guerrera_Mas_Funki why do you lump “language death” with war, poverty and disease?
Do you object to pidgin languages, or the entry of words from one language into another [even the French “le drugstore”] or are you especially charmed by small pockets of insular culturally by-passed groups who preserve their language, but miss out on cultural exchange they may have dearly wanted?
Are you worried that the world will all one day speak English or Chinese. If that were to happen [but given the individuality of peoples i don’t think it would] don’t you think the dominating languages would take unto themselves some of the language of the peoples who came under their influence? How can you expect the global culture to not lose some individuality as it globalizes? Just as with more racial intermarriage the lines demarcating the races begin to blur.
It is life. It is evolution. And the scholars must become the curators of the world’s cultural heritage.
@La_Guerrera_Mas_Funki That is fascinating about the pharmcos hiring linguistic anthropologists. I didn’t know that.
@bob_ that was beautifully said. LOL
@anartist I’m all about the beauty.
But, um, what are you referring to? :)
@anartist I think you are quite quick to assume what I believe. I do not “object” to pidgin languages or lament dynamic variation. I have a degree in linguistics with a concentration in pidginization and creolization. My greatest love affair is with change, in all its inevitability. There are circumstances, however, where languages become moribund and then die out, as opposed to fluidly becoming something else. Usually these circumstances coincide with colonial oppression, genocide, and other things that are kind of hard to get behind. When languages die in this way, we lose a star in the vast constellation of human knowledge. Knowledge embedded in languages that evolve “naturally” is not lost, as it is when languages die.
@bob_ Doctors w/o Borders vs. Linguists w/o Borders—LOL but spot on.
I say, if that’s your interest, then keep it close to your heart! That doesn’t mean that you have to insist that others do the same. It takes all kinds of people to develop a culture, and language is merely one part of that. What we do and how we treat each other is more important to me, but that does not diminish YOUR interest (language, in this case) whatsoever. We can both play our parts according to what is important to us, thereby creating a more complete picture of our cultures. Hell, as long as we’re adding something positive, there is precious little anyone can really complain about without looking like a jackass.
Yes it is a loss. And sad. Even more when it dies invisibly, having never been known to the world at large at all, just as many tropical insect species die before they are ever discovered. But—to be very corny—mother earth has to nurture her surviving children, and set aside a time to cry.
Language evolves like everything else. It only obsolesces if you think of it as a static, unchanging system.
@Fenris please check the above comments.
@Fenris Agreed. Perspective is everything.
@La_Guerrera_Mas_Funki : Death of information is inevitable, just as death of everything is inevitable. I understand what you’re saying Guerrera, but it’s inevitable, so why care? the information we carry along ourselves as a species changes and dies and is reborn, and is never the same from day to day. To try and capture information in an eternal, unchanging state, or to expect it to remain the same, or known to us, is to know the nature of folly.
@Fenris our role as individual agents of change is not outside of the processes of evolution. It is my belief that the proactive preservation of diversity is a good thing, and I am not alone. In fact, the people who understand the particular dynamics of linguistic and cultural change most intimately (namely linguistic anthropologists), are almost uniformly proponents of initiatives to preserve endangered languages :)
@Fenris Yes! A kind of “let the past inform the future” thing :)
It is the destiny of humanity to move beyond grunts and scribbles for the purpose of sharing our thoughts. Current language is a speed bump, a knot in the rope that we need not cling to. It prevents our climbing higher, evolving spectrum, where essence of meaning is witnessed through visualization. Syntax is the underlying structure of written and spoken language. Our quest for logos will ultimately unveil the true syntax that is seen and felt, sans an alphabet to disguise and butcher it from person to person.
Our quest for subjective truth has been accomplished with written and spoken language. You may interpret my comments any way you wish, but that only butchers the true meaning of my comments. We can barely communicate in this manner.
But if you could actually see my thoughts, for what they actually are, and I could see yours, then our quest for absolute truth of meaning will begin.
@Fenris
That’s alright. Loosing you doesn’t necessarily mean that either one of us is lost. If you find the gold, consider letting me know. I’ll share what I find with you as well.
@La_Guerrera_Mas_Funki You have chosen to be one of the curators of language. People like you will preserve what you can for those of us who may one day want to look back and see why we are here now linguistically. You [and DomenicX] are ones who have chosen to preserve the past for the rest of us.
Linguists w/o Boners? Cunning linguist urgently requested.
Some of us are stymied but we persevere with our obstinacy. I use Old English if warranted.
I’m a rebel. That’s just the way I roll.
If I were fluent in more languages I’d just rattle away in a language mish-mosh like the itinerant monk in Umberto Ecco’s The Name of the Rose.
Now that is a linguistically creative novel . . .
@anartist That sounds muy interesante. Comunque, ich glaube that perhaps la mayoría de la gente would not capire.
Way to wax the eloquent Esperanto Bob.
@bob_ Minhas competências linguísticas zijn zwak und ich wurde definitely have trouble capire myself. Aber I moltissimo appreciate votre réponse! :-)
@bob_ @anartist Me encanta this polyglot turn for the migliore that this thread has taken. Takk!!
@anartist Umberto Ecco’s semiotic genius might just be unparalleled :)
@anartist “Benvenuto” does mean welcome, but not the welcome you’re thinking of :)
“You’re welcome” is “de nada” in Spanish, “bitte” in German and “prego” in Italian :D
@bob_ l’chayem, gan bei, cic cin and cheers to you! :-)
And I’d like to thank Fluther for utf-8 encoding.
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