Why do some consider using proper English "talking white"?

I live in California and I have NEVER heard that phrase before.

Same as lower-class people who speak like they are of a higher class than they are.

They are looked down upon as lacking pride in their status, and aspiring to be something they are not, something, in fact, which is hated and resented amongst most of the rest of their class as being their eternal oppressors.

@palbertq I have never heard that phrase either.

You might find this article interesting.

I took a linguistics class and the most important thing I think I took from it was that there is no such thing as “proper English”. Proper, relative to what? There is a proper way America wish it was spoken – but you could travel all over the US and find it being spoken differently by a variety of different racial/geographical groups.

Because they’re ignorant.

because they’re idiots

I think “proper English” would actually be like how people speak in England.

“proper English” is “Received Pronunciation”, which was an incredibly elitist attempt to standardise spoken English.

It is pretty much how Eton/Harrow—>Oxford/Cambridge boys speak. The language of the ruling classes. “Posh” English.

Normal people, who speak in that manner, are treated as I explained above.

I am happy to say that I have never heard that phrase either.

@The_Idler I just knew you were English. Over here in the states we are not so class conscious.

I think this idea comes out of communities where there is an obvious, and unfortunate, class difference between non-whites and whites.

I am shocked to hear that people have not heard the phrase. I think it is awful that people think this way. How one speaks has nothing to do with the color of their skin, obviously, but even Oprah has pointed out, primarily speaking to black people that, “English is your friend,” and that (I’m paraphrasing this time) “speaking well is not speaking white.”

The recent criticism of Harry Reid saying Obama can speak like a black man when he needed to (I am paraphrasing again) shows that generalizations like this are made.

I have also never heard that phrase.
I don’t understand exactly what it means.

@bob_ I think when most people say someone is articulate, a good speaker, they are NOT commenting on the color of their skin. I feel blacks are simply especially sensitive to it, which I can understand. What do you think?

Because they’re stupid enough to think that the way you speak and present yourself is a function of your ethnicity rather than the person you are.

@FutureMemory I would argue that in the US our denial of class differences can lead to more racial prejudice.

@JLeslie I have never heard someone say that anyone other than a minority is an articulate speaker. I think that is where the sensitivity comes from.

@JLeslie It does sometimes feel that way. Saying Obama is “articulate” does not in any way mean ”...for a black guy”, for example.

The class system of the USA being somewhat correlated to race is an explanation for the similarities in the treatment of well-spoken blacks in the States and well-spoken working-classes in the UK.

@marinelife I can understand. If I think about it I have used “articulate” when talking about Spanish speaking people who are speaking Spanish. I was not saying other Spanish speaking people speak horrible Spanish, I was just commenting that it is easier for me to understand, because it is spoken closer to how the words are actually spelled, and the words are more defined, run together less in the sentence. Spanish is my second language, and I am not fully bilingual.

I have heard this phrase a lot before, maybe it’s an East Coast thing… I don’t agree with the legitimacy of it, but I think I know where it came from. The black Americans of the past were comprised largely of slaves and former slaves. Even after emancipation, it was harder for black families to earn the same kind of income that white families could easily earn. Education comes easier when money is available. Because those impoverished black Americans probably did not speak English as well as the white middle class and upper class AND government, white people probably took blacks for inarticulate. Now we have come a long way from those times, and it’s just another form of discrimination that, I think, is fading in America.

In my example of the Spanish speaker, it is not a comment on them being a minority in America, some of these people live still in their own countries in Latin America.

in response to the original post: languages have dialects. particularly so with a language with so many speakers as English. we have Canadian English, Irish English, Australian English and others. when you hear about “talking white” it means that the speech more closely approximates the majority style of English in the u.s. (or Britain or wherever) rather than the sub-varieties.

I have heard many people being described as “articulate”. (white, black, Hispanic and other)
I thought it was a compliment, are you suggesting that it isn’t?

I have heard this phrase before mostly directed at people of color by other people of color (but certainly by whites at people of color as well) – some communities adopt a dialect/slang/way of speaking different from the language spoken in a society where they feel oppressed – this helps with bonding, shared experience, pride, etc. When someone from said community wants to ‘make it’ according to the rules of the ‘outside larger society’, they’re seen as traitors to their past, their roots, their oppression and since the outside represents whites, they’re seen as speaking white, trying to ‘be something they’re not’ – it has to do with internalized racism and it has to do with some people in the community of color policing others in same community against what they think is ‘wanting to abandon the community’.

Ya know it mostly depends of where you are coming from for the most part in terms of the people you’d be hanging out with and all.

A person from one place who is use to talking a certain way and comes to another place they are gonna look at as different and if there is a majority of people talking that way and happen to be the same color, you get labeled…..

To me I have had experience when it came to the ghetto and upper class people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=27XccNVFMcg&feature=related

I don’t want to weigh in on the larger question at this point, but I have certainly heard the phrase ‘he is a very articulate speaker” about whites. I would imagine that the phrase “tallking white” might be one that is used within the black community to refer to other blacks and that’s why many of us haven’t heard it. Is that so @Blackberry?

It is not just about articulation and dialect though, it is the accent and mannerisms that accompany them.

For example, I have a very lazy, quite working-class accent and mannerisms, and I use many colloquialisms of the “normal” people, but I posses and use a large vocabulary and often employ complex or unusual/outdated language.

You would all probably be extremely surprised by my manner of speaking in real life, it being an odd juxtaposition of the structure and vocabulary of Victorian political satire and the accent and colloquialisms of the Middle-England working class.

Just because a black man is articulate and has a large vocabulary, doesn’t mean he would appear to be anywhere near to a stereotypically white manner of communication, if, say, he were to be speaking in a London West Indian accent and calling his conversation partner “mon”.
That would be an articulate West Indian.

But if he started calling people “my good sir” and pronouncing everything in RP “The Queen’s English”, it would be obvious he was “trying” to be “white”.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I think that is a great answer. That is how I have heard it used as well. I think that is why Oprah brings it up. I think she wants the blacks who hear this as a negative to ignore the voices in their own community.

I think it stems from the differences in the sound and cadence of “mainstream” English as opposed to the slang that one hears and associates with black people. The fact is that lots of people talk in that particular vernacular and because of television, lots more people are exposed to it than would be other wise. The exposure is limited to a small portion of the population who speak it and what is seen is taken as representative of the whole. When I was in the navy, I worked with people of all races and colors and there were black, white, latino, what do you call people from Belize?, any way, all sorts of people who spoke in what is widely accepted as “black speak”. Just as there were many black, white, latino, etc. who did not.
“Mainstream” English is spoken and attention is given to grammar, syntax, pronunciation while “black speak” has its own set of grammatical rules and has its own lyrical flow.
The perception is out there because of how it is represented. I don’t consider this necessarily the fault of those who don’t know any different. But it accounts for the surprise, I suppose. People have a misconception that they never think to question, and when they are shown a different reality – surprise!
This does not excuse people such as public figures who are or should be more aware of this. I speak of people with otherwise limited exposure to ways and people outside of their own spheres of influence.

I have had this conversation before about “acting white”... I think “talking white” is part of that larger issue: one of pride.

@JLeslie I agree that this should be ignored

@The_Idler I don’t think that happens in America. White people don’t think minorities are trying to be “white” by speaking well, or by speaking like the majority.

I think you have to have experienced the statement in the context that @Blackberry is referring to. I have, many times. I’ve been told that I “act white,” “talk white,” and am trying to be snobby and elitist just because of my manner of speaking. At first, it really hurt. But, now I realize it is just a cultural thing. I understand where those who say these things are coming from. I truly think it comes from insecurity. I have also had many white people tell me how “articulate” I am and I can definitely tell you that the implied ending to the sentence was “considering your race.”

Aye, to elaborate, I’m speaking of relations between usually blacks, whites, hispanics etc in the U.S.

Because the way American English is spoken by the Northeastern WASP upper classes is seen as the most socially desirable in the US (speaking RP here pegs anyone not actually English as presumptuous), and poor black people who have been repeatedly “reminded” that they are “trash” believe what they’ve been told deep down, and react to this in such a way as to be angry at anyone from a similar assumed race/class attempting to carry themselves like upper class whites. Further, it’s seen as a betrayal to try to do so; one must stand firm to one’s racial/class identity and not try to assimilate in any fashion to those who enslaved their ancestors and who try to keep them down now.

I’m not saying that’s the truth, but it seems to me that that’s the belief. My black relatives certainly believed it and at times it bothered some of them that I had a much different accent than theirs from the time I started talking. Being part white kept the actual complaints about my speech to a minimum, though I’d get looks on occasion. I couldn’t codeswitch to speak AAVE if you paid me. I’d sound like I was putting it on and making fun of people, so I don’t try.

@jealoustome Who said it? White people or people within your minority (assuming you are a minority).

@JLeslie It’s mostly other black folk

@JLeslie I (and I think everybody else) was talking about the perceptions of such behaviour within the black-community/working-class.

I don’t give a shit what the upper classes think of my mode of enunciation, and I think less of anyone who does care how they sound to an elitist, exclusive ruling community. Hence my problem with posh posers in the UK and the blacks’ problem with black people who try to act white, to endear themselves to the white establishment.

Soulless sell-outs, if you’ll excuse the gross generalisation.

@JLeslie Black people would say I was “acting white.” White people would say I was “articulate.” Same connotation to both.

@Blackberry It’s really a cultural thing rather than a linguistic one, which seems to be what people are going to town on. I grew up in a pretty large, affluent suburb and one of my best friends was black when I was in high school. He was very “white”, in that he spoke english very well, was an amazing student (went away to a top college), and was interested in “white people stuff”.

More than once we had some run-ins with the inner city holdouts—I mean that quite literally. The school district in my town was excellent, and it wasn’t uncommon for particular kids to live with their grandparents or other relatives during the week but actually permanently live in the city. A number of them represented their urban culture quite vocally. They would chastise my friend for “acting white”, not that he cared.

The more time they spent in our majority white city (~80% caucasian per the 2000 Census) the more polarized they became. Take a relatively moderate conservative and a moderate liberal and put them in a room for debate, and by the end of the day they will have pushed themeselves and polarized themselves into extremes—the same seems to apply to race.

People who percieve themselves as marginalized try to represent their culture to the ends of the earth, even if there’s no reason for it. Nobody in my town oppressed blacks. I live way up north—our culture here is very tolerant, there are no public displays of racism at my school or in public. Nonetheless, these people felt repressed and marginalized and lashed out against anyone who was black but acted white, like we had somehow corrupted their minds and turned them against their own kind.

There were so many comments so hope this is not a repeat idea, but it sounds to me like a sub culture thing. Where they feel you are leaving the culture of “being black”. I could be really off I know loll.

@jealoustome I don’t agree. Although I am empathetic to why you feel that it is the same. I think white people would describe any articulate speaker that was no matter what their color. Interesting that you and @Facade agree that it is black people who are making the “you sound white” statement. I think your community conditions you to perceive comments about how you speak as negative. It does not mean that whites should not be aware that what they say might be offensive, I think how the minority perceives something is what is most important. But, I think intention is important also.

Back to the Harry Reid comment. He is an idiot. Stunning that he used the word negro in 2009, I admit all of that. But, I heard many people in the media, black people say, “what do blacks speak like, I’m black.” And of course these people spoke mainstream English. I think most white people don’t assume a black person is going to speak a certain way, and we are not surprised when a black person sounds just like a white person (not sure how else to state that, of course I realize there are plenty of white people who speak horribly) but it is also true that if a person speaks a certain way we can sometimes guess with fairly good preceision that the person is black. So, just to be clear, when I speak to someone who speaks like me, I cannot guess if they are black, white, Indian, Hispanic, I would not venture guess. But if they speak with a certain dialect that gives away that they are most likely black, that is simply a fact. People from Miami with a certain accent are most likely Hispanic, another fact. But, I know many Hispanics who have no accent.

There’s plenty of good research out there and it’s important to understand the basic concepts. Linguists have been studying this for decades.

From Wikipedia: Sociolinguistics is the study of the effect of any and all aspects of society, including cultural norms, expectations, and context, on the way language is used. It also studies how language varieties differ between groups separated by certain social variables, e.g., ethnicity, religion, status, gender, level of education, age, etc., and how creation and adherence to these rules is used to categorize individuals in social or socioeconomic classes. As the usage of a language varies from place to place (dialect), language usage varies among social classes, and it is these sociolects that sociolinguistics studies.

Speech community is a concept in sociolinguistics that describes a more or less discrete group of people who use language in a unique and mutually accepted way among themselves. Speech communities can be members of a profession with a specialized jargon, distinct social groups like high school students or hip hop fans, or even tight-knit groups like families and friends. Members of speech communities will often develop slang or jargon to serve the group’s special purposes and priorities.

Crucial to sociolinguistic analysis is the concept of prestige; certain speech habits are assigned a positive or a negative value which is then applied to the speaker. This can operate on many levels. It can be realized on the level of the individual sound/phoneme, as Labov discovered in investigating pronunciation of the post-vocalic /r/ in the North-Eastern USA, or on the macro scale of language choice, as realized in the various diglossias that exist throughout the world, where Swiss-German/High German is perhaps most well known. An important implication of sociolinguistic theory is that speakers ‘choose’ a variety when making a speech act, whether consciously or subconsciously.

Basil Bernstein, a well-known British socio-linguist, devised in his book, ‘Elaborated and restricted codes: their social origins and some consequences,’ a social code system which he used to classify the various speech patterns for different social classes. He claimed that members of the middle class have ways of organizing their speech which are fundamentally very different from the ways adopted by the working class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolinguistics#Sociolinguistic_variables

Skin color as such has nothing to do with how people talk. The brain of a newborn baby is ready to learn any language and sociolect. It depends on the speech community.

I think what you’re referring to might have to do with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#Contemporary_segregation

In truly integrated environments there is no such thing as “black talk” or “white talk” or “green talk” for native speakers. It’s different with immigrants of course, when English is a second language.

@JLeslie It is hard for me to write this politely because it is something that frustrates me immensely. White people who are not racist or prejudiced always assume that every other normal white person is just like them. I KNOW exactly what the folks who told me I was “articulate” meant because I was there having the conversation with them. Also, no other ethnicity has ever told me I was “articulate.” For many white folks, it is a code word. I don’t mean to offend you. You are probably too nice to know the people I’m referring to.

@jealoustome You know what, I believe you. But, do you think it was true of Biden? That he is a racist or surprised Obama spoke well? I think in politics they talk behind closed doors and with people who specialize in the marketibility of a candidate in these terms, and there is no malice or assumption made or intended.

@jealoustome Yeah, it’s a kind of half-raised-eyebrow, nearly-condescending, almost-surprised, mildy-amused acknowledgement, with subtle but sinister implications regarding their prejudices and stereotypes.

Don’t know about in politics though.

@JLeslie I agree that conversations about the marketability of a candidate do not fall into this category, however unwise the generalizations.

@The_Idler Wow. You’ve described it perfectly.

@The_Idler But in England aren’t the British keenly aware of class and where someone is from by their accent? Even if everyone in the room is white? This is kind of true in America too, don’t get me wrong.

This has been covered but had to jump in with a funny.

I have had this said to me a few times. I look at them, raise an eyebrow, and say “no… you are speaking like a Gypsy.”

This usually results in some gaping and stuttering followed by a comment from me about how proper use of the English language is not the providence of whites, rather it is the providence of the properly educated.

Since I am Rromani Gypsy I do not say “Black” but anyone’s ethnicity will work.

Oooh I hate this subject. I am the biggest stereotype of “white girl”. So I’m constantly made fun of for being “white”.
I used to work at a telemarketing company. One day I was made fun of because I would say a state’s name CORRECTLY… by a manager.
People are really ridiculous.

Another fine example of “you can’t make sense out of nonsense”.

My 18 year old daughter is the first person I’ve met who was promoted to supervisor her third day on the job.

I think it has something to do with her ability to articulate.

(Or maybe because she can count without using her fingers.)

In any case, she said she’s now responsible for making announcements over the store’s public address system…

…because, she’s been told, she “sounds like Barbie”.

Incredible.

I’m surprised to hear that so many people have never heard this phrase before. I live in Boston and I’ve been hearing it since I was small, I kind of figured the rest of the country was the same. People make fun of me all the time because they say that I act like I’m white. (I’m black) they say I speak like I’m white because I speak proper English. I also get made fun of because I don’t understand a lot of slang. One time this boy asked me for my “math”. I had no idea what he was talking about. I guess it meant he wanted my number. So he looked at me like I was crazy and laughed because I was “too white”. I have no idea what it means but it’s one of the dumbest things to say to a person

I’ve been called articulate right to my face.

@Justnice I think it’s not a question of where you are in the country, but as I suggested before it might be something that is said more in the black community than outside it.

@Jeruba Yes, and so have I. Maybe it has come to seem as a pejorative or something only used in reference to blacks in recent years?

@Jeruba Did you find it offensive?

Not at all. I took it as a compliment.

However, I have also been criticized for the way I speak: “Speak English, can’t you?” “You talk like a dictionary.” “Don’t you know any ordinary words?” I do consider my audience when speaking, but perhaps do not always gauge it accurately. It’s not as if I meant to give offense. Insecure people are always going to find fault with others for something.

I suppose it could be something that is said in the black community. That would make sense because I’ve never heard a white person say such a thing unless they were white who “acted black”. This is another term I’ve also heard

@Jeruba ha, true story – I get that too.. even though it’s a fact that your vocabulary and grasp on the language are 1000x better than mine

Where I come from, it is well-known that Blacks speak a different form of English in their homes and neighborhoods than whites do. Blacks often speak of having to talk “White” when they go to try to get a job. If they can’t, it makes it harder. Those who do talk white are sometimes denigrated when they get back home for selling out. Sometimes people call this form of speech ”Ebonics.”

In any case, since “proper” English is the English of the predominant culture, then Ebonics, by default, becomes improper English. It is also considered, by some folks, a betrayal of their heritage, as if they are denying where they come from. Some blacks call this “keepin’ it real.”

Is “proper” English Caucasian English? Yes and no. To the extend that people consider “keepin’ it real” to be important, then proper English is owned by the majority race. But of course, the language is all of ours. Culture (including language) belongs to all who participate in it. Yes, there are different forms of English, and yes, people don’t respect the idea of different dialects. So every dialect that does not sound like “proper” English is considered wrong and it casts aspersions on the education of those who speak it. Non-proper English is considered a sign of ignorance for many people.

In reality, “proper” English is required to get ahead in most businesses, with perhaps the music industry being an exception. People who hear non-white forms of English are often afraid of the people who speak it, and if they are not afraid, they might think the people speaking those dialects are ignorant. People who do not speak standard English are often discriminated against as a result.

The language, in reality, belongs to those who have the most visibility using it. It also belongs to English teachers and grammarians everywhere. Most people think that language should not change. But it does, whether we want it to or not.

Many blacks I know are proud of their dialect (AAVE – African-American Vernacular Engilsh) and are sick of being told they speak wrong when in fact they only speak differently as linguists consider what was once called “black English” to be an actual dialect that simply differs from the standard – it is no less proper.

@Jeruba That’s how I would look at it. If someone gives me a compliment, I think articulate is a compliment I would not read into it. That is why I think so much of someone’s response to the word rests on their own personal experience, and not the person saying it.

If you used a vocabulary word I didn’t know I would just ask you what it meant. I would feel your knowledge is superior to mine, knowledge of the English language, but I would not feel offended or belittled. Especially since I feel confident you would be willing to explain or reword your sentence. If anything it is an opportunity for me to learn something new.

The concept of “proper English” being white led to the concept of ebonics.

@Jeruba Eschew obfuscation.

@hug_of_war I agree, dialect should matter little. You are also admitting or agreeing that there is a “black” dialect I guess. I would argue if a person cannot be understood in mainstream America, he will be criticized when attempting to communication. What I mean is, I am totally fine with speaking your dialect in your neighborhoods and families, but a person needs to be able to be understood when at work or dealing with the public.

I had a Jamaican employee who I could not understand when he spoke English to his mother, his accent and slang was so strong, but at work he sounded like he was born in the US. My husband speaks Spanish with his family, English at work and with me. It’s about being understood. And, I also think people can’t just rewrite what is “proper” but of course our language does change over time. Accent is one thing, I never mind an accent, or sometimes the rythym of someones speech might give away an ethnicity. I kind of like the variety in our country. But, using double negatives, the word hisself, saying ax instead of ask, those are just not ok in my mind. I hear plenty of white people using all of those examples.

@Jeruba I’ve gotten that before from people and for a time at one of my Commands I did try to fit my speech to sound more like those around me. I grew resentful after a while and decided it wasn’t my fault if other people chose not to expand their vocabularies since they left school. If a word I use in everyday speech is considered a “fifty cent” word, too bad. I don’t have change.

Err… I meant province, not providence.

Now I look like a moron.

@JLeslie, of course I would. Others do the same for me all the time, and that’s one way I learn. I wasn’t born vocabulous. My husband and son pulled out “benthic” the other night at dinner, and I had never heard it before. Now I know what it means.

It also makes a difference that the English language happens to be my professional field. If there’s an opera singer in the crowd when we sing “Happy Birthday,” we don’t expect her to sing off key, even if I do. If a professional cake decorator happens to bake your cake, we don’t expect her to slap some chocolate frosting out of a can onto a sheet cake in a 9×13 pan and stick candles in it, even if that’s what my kids usually get.

Oddly, many of the complainers I’ve known were being paid much more than I was to be language professionals because they carried the title of writer.

@Arisztid, no, you don’t. Who doesn’t slip up now and then?

@Jeruba Thankyou for saying that. I am OCD enough that I wish I could ask a moderator to delete posts of mine that have errors.

Leave ‘em. They’ll make somebody else feel better.

@Jeruba I have made a generalization over time, that might be completely wrong, but here I go. It seems to me that people who were raised in households where questioning was encouraged, and there was no such thing as a stupid question, are more likely to not feel badly about not knowing something. When I am with people who are talking about something I don’t know, if I am interested, I ask them to tell me about it. I know other people who in the same situation will be completely quiet, because they are afraid of tipping their hand that they have no knowledge on the subject.

@Arisztid You couldn’t look like a moron if you tried. I’ve kicked myself for typos numerous times and @gailcalled caught me in one today.

@Jeruba True that. :)

@janbb Thankyou very much!

English is universal right, so I guess however it ends up is part of that one culture who adopted it as a language. or who were conquered by English speaking folk, whichever.

I suppose England has the rights to say that it’s their language, technically, but really I don’t think it’s anyone’s language anymore. I mean the Queen’s English isn’t even as prominentnt as it once was, replaced by the American type, if I may call it that. Even people in Scotland or Ireland have their own dialects and styles, so I don’t get that it should be a ’‘white’’ language, as those other white folks who adopted the language or who have had it opposed on them fuck it up just as much as non whites may be said to.

Plenty of Oriental folk speak English too, and there are a lot of Oriental folk everywhere…anyone who says it’s a white’s language is prolly a fan of Skrewdriver or some shit.
Languages have quite the histories, and I’m not versed in it so ignore all this, but it most certainly isn’t as simple as belonging to one person or another when it’s universal.

It has roots and origins yes, but that hardly matters now, when three quarters of the world speak it.

Sides, whae ta fuck is tae say wha proper English is enwey. XD

The English, America, rap artists? Nobody, everyone? :/

@Symbeline English is actually not universal, no.

@Symbeline I don’t get it. What does Asian people (Some take offense to Oriental FYI) speaking English have anything to do with the question?

Wha’ chu talkin’ ‘bout, Willis?

@Symbeline there is more variety in accents and dialects just within England, than in all the English speaking nations of the rest of world.

Like, if you travel 30 miles, you’ll notice the difference.
60 miles, and people start to consider each others’ accents and words ‘weird’.
100 miles, and some people would struggle to understand the older local people.
Glasgow, you may as well be on another planet…

Where people live or have lived or spent time will greatly affect their answer here. I have never heard the term “talking white.” I have been in many of the U.S.States and in some there is great difference between blacks and whites in their spoken English; in some states there is not.

Various “talking white vs talking black” articles: HERE

Yes, if Wikipedia has an article on it, then the phenomenon exists.

@The_Idler Well it’s like that everywhere where English is spoken en masse, no? Canada is another example. I don’t see why it would be different in England, just saying that’s where English is said to come from. But if there are more variations there than anywhere else, that kinda illuminates my point about the ’‘Queen’s English’’.

@JLeslie Because they’re not white, but still speak English? And me calling them ’‘orientals’’ is not to be offensive. Jesus. I suppose that’s offensive too.

@Symbeline I was not offended. I was just letting you know, for your knowledge, not to criticise you. I did not think you were anti-asian or trying to be offensive, I am informing you that some people might find it offensive.

I think “talking white” is more about speaking mainstream English than being able to speak English. I also kind of doubt that Asians are much a part of the discussion, because I think most Asian families in America encourage their children to learn English well, emphasize education, and understand that conforming to some extent can help a person acheive career success. But, I guess I could be wrong.

When my family came to this country they didn’t teach the language of the old country, because they were afraid their children would have an accent (unfortunately, because it would have been great if more of us were bilingual) children were encouraged to be “American” and grab the opportunites the country had to offer. When a black family or community discourages someone by accusing them of “talking white” it is very sad to me. Some cultures discourage their children from going to college, because they accuse their kids of thinking they are better than the rest of the family my sister had an Irish friend who experienced this. It’s all the same to me.

@JLeslie Maybe I didn’t understand the question, it’s entirely possible, but I thought the asker was asking about the different variations of English there are, and why some think certain ones are legitimate and others not, at least a lot more so than who can or cannot speak it.
For the Asians, I also meant wherever they may be, not just America. I think if you speak English, you can probably get by in China if you don’t speak a lick of Chinese.
Anyways if that’s not what the question was asking I’m confused, otherwise. feel free to dismiss my participation in this thread if I approached the wrong angle.

@Symbeline Are you American? I see you lived in France and Canada. It might be that the question really applies to America only, and would be interpreted differently by people outside of the country. I hope I wasn’t harsh. I am sure all opinions are valued here on fluther. :)

In his book ‘The Audacity of Hope’ Barack Obama while in college accused a fellow student who was a African American of ‘acting white’. Many months later Obama was riven with remorse and he realized he made a grave mistake. He went to see this student and apologized.

The concept of acting white or acting black is totally ridiculous and anachronistic. There are only smart or stupid ways of acting or humane or inhumane ways of acting. The term ‘acting white’ should never ever be used today. It should remain in encyclopedias as a reminder and warning of mistakes made in the past together with terms like nigger or judensau, horrible terms we hopefully will never hear again.

but don’t you find it disgusting to watch a black man attempting to mimic the mannerisms of the white establishment, in order to endear himself to them by implicitly acknowledging the superiority and desirability of their particular idiosyncrasies in communication, and so reinforcing the idea that his roots are of an inherently lower worth than those of the white establishment? In essence, being a pathetic, sell-out, sucker with no pride?

because that kind of behaviour is what I think should be condemned to exist only in the history books

@The_Idler Are you serious? I am not sure I understand the tone of what you wrote.

@The_Idler No, I don’t find it disgusting – the fact that there is a divide in mannerisms (for some) is the problem (because of the history that led up to it), not the crossover, so to speak . It is clear to many youths of color that given the established system for success (the legal way), they have to get an education, a job and given their experiences in certain housing, they’d want to get out – this , to some of their peers, is betrayal (the kind you speak of) – to most of us living in reality (of whatever race) it shows courage, not selling-out. You can speak of selling out when you discuss the evolution of hip-hop, for example but many of them sold out to money which you may or may not equate with ‘being white’. When it comes to regular people, it’s all about being the best you can be and if it takes leaving your ‘roots’ of difference behind, so be it. Their race will always be salient and visible as long as we, as a society, place any value on it (or take away value because of it). When there is less of a divide between races or cultures or classes, there is less of a need for different mannerisms and while it is true that all of us support the status quo by saying one of the only ways to make it is through education and working (both ways to control society), the alternatives for some of these kids are much much worse.

In simpler terms:
Some black people ‘act white’ to be accepted by the white establishment. This is shameful. It also reinforces the white establishment’s sense of superiority. This is where someone should be reproached for ‘acting white’

It definitely shouldn’t be used to discourage leaving the ghetto, getting an education, listening to classical music or running for president, for example, which I understand does happen, and which I do not agree with.

But this isn’t ‘acting white’, because they are not doing these things specifically to be more like white people or to make the white establishment “like” them. But when people do try to endear themselves to their arrogant, overly-superior oppressors via mimicry (whether black/white or working-class/upper-class), they are betraying their fellows and doing a dishonour to their roots, as well as cementing the idea of superiority in the minds of the ruling class.

I do think there are differences between the class structure in England and racial issues on speech and culture in the United States. You can’t just lump them together and extrapolate from one to the other.

I’m saying we still need a term to describe such behaviour.

There is a difference between actually trying to ‘act white’, act like a civilized white man to appeal to those people, which is shameful, and having aspirations to ‘make it’ in the real world in a traditionally white-dominated system, which doesn’t actually necessitate ‘acting white’ anyway.

@janbb I’m not and I won’t; I did mention some similarities.

@The_Idler You are serious. No. @Simone_De_Beauvoir is more on point. It is not acting white it is becoming Americanized. Each generation is more likely to assimilate in language, mannerisms and more, partly because they are born and raised in the country, and partly because these adoptions or conforming is a pratical way to fit in and get ahead. I find nothing wrong with assimilating into the country. It does not mean one cannot keep traditions and heir own language in their home. There can be a balance, I once heard Tony Blair speak of the same thing.

The original question was about “talking white” not “acting white” and why is it assumed that using proper English is considered such. You can argue whether there should be a standard English or whether alternative dialects or forms of speech should be acceptable in the larger world, but the question was not about aping white behavior as such – whatever that would mean.

@JLeslie You describe there what I said above should not be criticised as “acting white”.

What I said should be criticised is “when people do try to endear themselves to their arrogant, overly-superior oppressors via mimicry, [as] they are betraying their fellows and doing a dishonour to their roots, as well as cementing the idea of superiority in the minds of the ruling class.”
which would be “trying to act like a white man”.

@The_Idler Look, there is plenty of cowardice and sucking up going on in the work world without it having to be about race – there is no such thing as a collective ‘roots’ for people of color in America – there are different groups and different classes and it depends on the area where people live. If you are going to begin an attempt at a sociological explanation, you have to be able to tease out multiple factors and not put it all in one pot. It is obvious to people where power and success are and it is obvious that many people want to be there and to get there. The fact that many people in power are white isn’t the fault of those of color or their problem. Plenty people of color are successful and they work in their communities and other communities and make things better for everyone. Plenty of white people don’t consider their roots or communities and so it’s not really race dependent. You can’t feel shame for people of color and not feel shame for whites, as well. This is why @mattbrowne is correct – you have to assume that integrity and stupidity aren’t race-related and treat each individual on their own merits without forgetting what privileges/challenges they have.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Well said.

I think you are all missing my point. Maybe I was too wordy…..
I really don’t understand how you can disagree with me, and then write a paragraph that 100% supports what I said…

I agree with everything you’ve all said; I don’t know how to word it any differently…

———————————

Wouldn’t you feel a white man, trying to ‘act black’ to seem ‘cool’, would be something quite pathetic? It’s tantamount to admitting that he thinks normal white people can’t be cool.

It takes on a more sinister face in the reverse situation.
When a black man tries to ‘act white’ to seem ‘civilized’ or ‘intelligent’ etc, it is tantamount to admitting that he thinks normal black people can’t be those things. Even if he doesn’t think that, he is still reinforcing that idea in the people he is attempting to appeal to with that behaviour, the white establishment.

I am saying that black people DO NOT NEED to ‘act white’ to be civilized and intelligent, and those that do are reinforcing the very problem mentioned above, the meaning within the divide in speech/mannerisms, by supporting the prejudice, stereotyping and ideas of “most desirable speech/mannerisms” that give the establishment their sense of superiority.

I know some people are accused of ‘acting white’ when they say they want to pursue a traditionally white career or whatever, and that is wrong.

I don’t want to discourage anyone from any aspiration.

I do want to discourage people from imagining they have to pathetically mimic their former oppressors (and so further inflate their egos and perpetuate the meaning in the divide in speech/mannerisms) to realise that aspiration.

@The_Idler I guess I don’t think in terms of former oppressor. If I moved to Germany, I would maintain some Americanness (i am pretty sure I made up that word) and also begin to conform somewhat. I am not thinking Nazi – Jew. Just like I don’t think slave owner – slave, when I see black and white people. If black people have that in their mind, that they have to mimic their oppressor and they resent it or something, then I would argue they are thinking about it incorrectly, as I implied in some of my posts closer to the top. Meanwhile, I am not trying to put words into the mouths or minds of black people, I am just using it as an example. It is America, what makes someone accepted and possibly more prosperous in America, it is not racial at all really.

@The_Idler I get what you’re saying. However, I think you’re not recognizing the fact that when people of color ‘speak white’ or ‘act white’, they are not doing it to appease their oppressor. Most people don’t pause in their lives to consider what their actions might mean in a larger sense, they don’t think about how the daily life relates to patters of power. People of color know there is nothing wrong with them, that’s why they developed their own mannerisms when they weren’t welcome in the white community. Now that races are mixing (why are we still talking about in this day and age), some people want to express their anger at some others ‘making it’ and them not ‘making it’. I think this is counterproductive – the more racial mixing there is, the more people of all races in positions of power, the less there will be a need to protect the ‘culture’ that sprung out from a time in history when there was division.

But if all those non-whites pursuing positions of power did not, at any point, actively/consciously modify their behaviour to appeal to the traditionally white-superior establishment, that noble and glorious ultimate goal of equal-acceptance would be coming so much the quicker.

My real problem is not betraying roots and shaming culture, but that this behaviour actually perpetuates the idea that ‘white’ speech/behaviour is necessary or even desirable for someone to be successful, which I think we can all agree is the idea that disgusts us the most.

@The_Idler that noble and glorious ultimate goal of equal-acceptance would be coming so much the quicker. Hell to the no it wouldn’t. We all have to do what you describe. I am white yet I have to ‘act normal’ so to speak at my job and for my job even though I don’t want to dress in these clothes, I don’t want to be perceived as a woman, I don’t want to feel like I can’t talk about being queer or a vegan, etc. However, I conform, we all do for the sake (in my case) of our families, our bigger goals, our dreams. BUT and this is important: once we enter an establishment previously run by white men, we can start to change things and many of us have. It’s all about your choice in life – you can pursue radical means of change (when you can afford it) or you have to break the system bit by bit.

Perhaps I am too principled.

@The_Idler Nothing wrong with that – however, once you actually are an activist and you figure out some of the ropes of how change comes about, you learn there are various ways to change and we each pick our own way at different points in our lives – before I had kids, I did more underground, street activism that was illegal sometimes and against the police in other times. Some activism I did later put me in danger, under surveillance (possible) with the gov’t. Now, that I have children, I think of more than myself and my actions as an activist have to be less radical because my children didn’t ask to be born to a mother who thinks it’s perfectly fine to be arrested for protests and I have to think of them.

@The_Idler I guess I don’t see speaking like the majority as a betraying roots. I think of speaking English with a dialect as the same as speaking a foreign language. And, I think you are saying people should not be judged by how they look, what they wear, if they use their hands a lot when they speak, or if they don’t, whatever mannerisms you are thinking. Probably we all think of it the same way ideally, not to prejudge, but the truth is we all live with these things in our society no matter what color, race, or religion we are. If a white guy is dressing and acting like a hoodlum, I don’t think he is acting black in my mind, I just think he is a hood, and like they say he should “pick his pants up off the ground.”

In that respect I would ‘let off’ someone who sucked up in this way at two points in his life:
University interviews and job interviews.

I understand how some people might need to put on airs (or ‘act white’ or just really obedient and diligent) in these situations, to be successful. It’s a pity.

I will go through my life, approaching these situations with a down-to-earth attitude and basically say “This is what I have done, this is what I can do. If you don’t pretend to be something you’re not, neither will I. I hope we can work productively together”.
In my experience, a lot of interviewers are sick of people behaving in a very contrived manner to appeal to them, and appreciate my absolute failure in mincing words and pulling punches WRT my ideals.

I just aced my uni applications with this method, to some of the most prestigious universities in the UK, so I don’t intend to become some sappy yes-man anytime soon, nor do I think I have to, but maybe it is a much more deeply entrenched idea in the USA, that people can’t be snapped out of it in one shot, and infiltration is the best way…

Well, I mean, if you Americans say so, who am I to argue?
still, it’s a pity.

@The_Idler I am hardly representative of America, m’dear

@The_Idler Just to explain a little further, not being argumentative. I do not think blacks are putting on airs, but I am not black so I cannot speak for them. The ones who “act white” as we are calling it for this thread, I think ARE acting themselves. It is their community or family who is counting it as a betrayal possibly to use your word. The black people I grew up with spoke like me and acted like me because we were raised in the same neighborhood and went to the same school. It is class related, they are middle class just like me, and that is being middle class in America in the northeast at least. There is some variation within the country of course for speech patterns and some other things, but nothing wildly different.

My husband has an accent, but grew up middle class (well he would be middle class in America, he was upper class in his country) and so he seemingly has no problem fitting right in with mainstream middle class Americans. Again ethnicity plays no part in him being accepted from what I have found.

Everyone “straightens” up a little and tries to present themselves in the best light during an interview or University application, but of course we need to be honest about ourselves and our abilities and interests.

Well this is the distinction.

I have no problem with someone who talks like a NE middle-class educated individual, if that is what they are, because that has nothing to do with colour. I know some people would call it ‘acting white’, but I can’t fault someone for acting in same the manner they have been since they were born, because they are a product of their environment. In fact, that is what I want.

What makes me sad is a person pretending to be something they are not, in order to impress the very people who have given the sinister meaning to the differences between that person and themselves.

wrt the OQ, like your husband, I do not think blacks, or anyone, should put on an accent to “fit in”.
That is my issue. That is where ‘acting white’ is undesirable (to me).

Keyword here being “act”. People purposely behaving in a contrived manner to give a particular impression. That doesn’t apply if they were already NE middle-class educated people. If they started trying to ‘act black’, that would be just as ridiculous, though inherently less counter-productive WRT nullifying the meaning within differences in speech/manner.

But wouldn’t you agree that you might talk one way among your friends and another in a professional setting? I certainly have a Fluther voice and a community college voice although they are both genuine aspects of myself. I don’t consider either inauthentic but suiting the affect to the atmosphere – although I do slip at times and “act Fluther” at work, much to people’s surprise and err – delight.

@The_Idler Understood. Acting is uncomfortable for everyone. I support what @janbb says, having two voices is not necessarily acting.

I’m an exceptional individual, I suppose, in that one of my most important principles is to behave in as honest and representative a way, with regards to my true nature, at all times.

This is actually something of a character flaw, because subtle deception is part of being human and part of participating in society, but at least you know what you’re getting with me.

There is no deception. It is appropriate behavior and speech at the time. I swear at home, I don’t at work. I cover my shoulders when attending a wedding in an orthodox synagogue, I didn’t for my own wedding which was in a hotel. I speak Spanish to my mother-in-law, I speak English to you. Some things are out of respect, some are practical, none of them do I feel I am not being true to myself.

But none of those are pandering to an elitist, exclusive establishment of snobbery and self-superiority, with a history of brutally oppressing your ancestors.

Well, maybe the swearing at work is like that, but that is why I won’t work somewhere I can’t swear.

Fuck office culture.

@The_Idler Of course it’s ‘fuck office culture’, but we should all have a problem with it, regardless of race. I hate the white elites just as much as the next guy (of whatever race) but if I rebelled and said ‘I’ll try to make my money otherwise’, I’d be screwed.

The brutality was long enough ago that it should be put aside, not forgotten, never forgotten, but put aside. Staying in that mindset hurts the individual, it is cutting your nose off to spite your face. A black child born today in America should be in the mind set of all the opportunity they have in America, that they are as American as any WASP in America, and should have pride as an American. If they are in the mindset of them being the great grandchild of a slave, if that thought is their entire identy, they are enslaving themselves.

My people were sent to the ovens, but I don’t think of the Germans as speaking the opressors language. If I moved to Germany I would want to speak the best German I could. I might never completely assimilate, but if I had child born there, I would understand that they would be German, and most likely move towards conforming to their culture. Plus, it is the American way to judge each person on his merits. Not to consider their ancestors crimes.

There is an argument that it is different for the Jews, because they left the land where they were tortured, and I do not know how Polish and German Jews feel who still live in those countries following the holocaust.

I don’t think Nazi persecution of Jews is a reasonable comparison.

The white establishment in the USA now is directly descended from the old order.
Racism and white supremacism, in varying degrees from subconscious to militant, is alive in the USA.
The German establishment is pretty much 100% denazified.

If you went to Germany and adopted the speech and mannerisms that typified the Nazis, the Germans would be horrified.

It’s not about how “German” you are, just like ‘acting white’ isn’t about how “American” you are.

Like you said, they should be proud to be American.
‘Acting white’ to be more ‘American’ is not only unnecessary and wrong, it also perpetuates perverse ideas that ‘American = White’

@The_Idler we just disagree, even though I understand your point. To me America is not white. To me America is a melting pot; a country of immigrants. I think my husband is as American as me, even though he was born in a different country. Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, if they are American they are American; immigrant, first generation, second, tenth, all American. To me that is what America is.

I don’t see it as “acting white” at all. But then I am white, so maybe my opinion means little.

@The_Idler Just wanted to add there are assholes in my country who think that America is a Christian white country, but they are to be ignored, because they are stupid.

I don’t understand how you can keep disagreeing with me and then saying the same thing I just said!

I don’t get all this acting white stuff…aren’t people free to ’‘act’’ how they will? Emulating some culture or language that isn’t your own is nothing new and is certainly not relegated to black folk acting like white folk. What about all those white kids acting like black kids, or so called punks who purchase two hundred dollar combat boots haha.

I guess that’s far from the point, although I kinda doubt it’s all about superiority…as for fitting in, well whether it’s legitimate or not, it’s highly demanded wherever you go.
Being from France, I have no choice but to adopt the slangs, dialect and even the accent of the French Canadian otherwise I’ll be shunned…nobody’s fault really, but I think the problem may stem from digging too deep a trench in between ’‘acting’’ white or what other differences there are that just shouldn’t be all that important, given that we’re all human and language is how everyone communicates.
Personally I tend to not give a fuck, but I often get the cold shoulder because I don’t make much of an effort. :/

The Idler does have a point…trying to impress those who define that very trench themselves…on the other hand, but it’s not always easy to present individualism when your rent and work opportunities depend on it. XD

@The_Idler There must be something in the semantics. If you say we agree, then I believe you. :).

Well I’ll just reiterate my main point:
Like you, I don’t think people need to ‘act white’ to ‘be American’ or ‘be intelligent’ or ‘seem educated’.
Some people DO do that though, which is a pity. It also makes people carry on thinking like that.

@The_Idler Just curious, you are English right? Have you ever lived in America?

No, but I’ve visited. I’ve visited Canada more though. I have spoken to many Americans from many backgrounds in the UK, USA and Canada about these kinds of issues, because I find them very interesting.

I’ve seen what @The_Idler‘s talking about: I was at some NYC film party and there was this young woman there who 1) freaked out when I showed up and 2) had a different accent after she’d had a few and we happened to leave at the same time. She called someone up on her mobile when she got to the elevator and started talking to them in AAVE. Her posture changed, everything. It was as if she shrugged off her office clothes after a long day at work. I wish she’d been able to see her own face.

It’s not often that I’ve seen it, but it does happen. The reason why this girl freaked at my being there is a phenomenon I’ve seen much more often and goes to what @The_Idler was talking about: There are some black people who want to be the “special” ones; the only black person in the room. The ones where white people exclaim, “Well, you’re not like one of those black people.” When my obviously mixed-race self shows up, it’s a problem for them. These particular people do unthinkingly put certain kinds of UC white people on a pedestal and are trying to impress them because they want what those people have. It’s human nature. I can’t get angry about it.

Whether people admit it or not, everyone is a striver on some level, and they will do what they feel they need to do to gain an advantage. I’m still friendly. And whenever white people give me a variation of, “Well, you’re not like those people” or “Well, you’re not really black,” I ask something in the vein of, “But how do you know? Maybe I’m a great actress. What would it matter anyway? After all, I don’t know who you are at home, either!”

I’ve seen similar behavior with some English people, and I know many people from certain parts of the UK who’ve moved to the US in order to escape the overbearing implications of the class problem. Let’s just say that these days, I know a lot of people from Essex. Anyway. I went to a gathering a few months ago where there was a talk with a writer who was rather posh, if being a legacy of Harrow and Brasenose College is posh. Everyone’s accent but my own changed from what they had been the week before. I laughed. It’s the same thing.

@aprilsimnel Interesting that you think it is purposeful to possibly get attention. Your statement, “Well, you’re not like one of those black people.” I can’t even imagine saying that to someone. Ugh.

I guess from my perspective I change how I talk depending who I am speaking to, As you mentioned in your last paragraph, becuase it is human nature to mimic the people you are around, and because all of it is part of me. Like, when I am with my parents I speak like a NY’er, in MI have a little more of a midwestern accent. They are both truths for me, I have lived in both places, so I take on the accents.

@The_Idler I wanted to clarify that the white people I spoke of who do think America is a white country are not included in speaking English well, or to use the phrase “like white people.” they are hicks and ignorant and tend to have poor grammar and limited vocabulary.

For all of those who didn’t believe that “articulate” is often used as a subtle slur, check out last night’s 30 Rock at minute 3:32. If it’s a joke on 30 Rock, I’m pretty sure it’s a commonly known/experienced slur.

Thought the people on this thread might appreciate a Facebook Status I found this morning posted by a fellow alum of mine who is a local news anchor The blackest White person’s list is out, and U.S. Congressman Steve Cohen is number 6 on the list. Right now, the morning crew is talking about the Whitest Black person. Two names have popped up…Clarence Thomas and Tiger Woods. I say Tiger tops the list. What say you? He is black by the way.

@benjlesliedrewim Well it just goes to show you that race doesn’t matter when it comes to misinformation and ignorance.

@bensimone_de_beauvoirim Why do you say that? It is just done in fun.

@anjleslieim I guess I’m missing the joke.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir knock knock

@bob_ who’s there?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Boo.

Boo – voir!

Um, no.

(sorry. couldn’t resist. carry on.)

LOL.