Do you think the Roman Catholic Church can survive much longer?

I’m not sure religion in general can survive much longer. 50–100 years maybe…

In human terms or in geologic terms? I think in human terms, it’ll probably last in one form or another about as long as humans do, which could be hundreds of thousands more years. (That’s a big “if” humans can last that long.)

In geologic terms? No. It’ll be gone before Africa squeezes up against Europe and wipes out the Mediterranean Sea. And that’ll be next to no time at all in geological time.

The longest surviving organization in the history of the world? The organization that has survived for 2000 years? Yeah. I think it can survive a hell of a lot longer.

Faith is a very powerful thing. And until science can prove there is no God…the roman catholic church will prevail.

kiddie fiddlers or no kiddie fiddlers

They have survived with this kind of corruption for almost 2 millennia. Unfortunately, it will not break their neck this time either.

@j0ey hahaha kiddie fiddlers

They’ll survive. There’s nothing rational about religion. This church is too big, too powerful, and too wealthy to disappear because of this. They will continue to decline in membership in the west, and will continue to have trouble finding priests, which will result in more closed churches, but they will remain a large church with strong influence in the west, and they may continue to grow in places like Africa where their new, more conservative philosophy under Ratzinger (how many Popes are as well known under their pre-papacy names?) )is more popular.

It will survive even after taking a real battering (which is entirely justified)...religion and ritual has been around in the human psyche for so long and the Catholic church has so many followers and is so powerful in parts of the world that it might not come out of the other side of this smelling of roses but it shall come out of the other side.

The Catholic Church is akin to a worldwide mega-corporation with huge amounts of assets. They’re going to be around for a long time. As far as the priest scandal and how the Catholic Church covers it up, among other things, business as usual for them.

Sure it will survive. Generally I think Catholics not only see it as their religion, but as a large part of their identity. This will eventually quiet down and be excused as some incompetent, even bad, people in the church, but most Catholics believe, or want to believe that their priest is wonderful. 10–15 years ago when there were many many accusations (there had been accusations even before that, priests have been tried in courts, I remember cases when I was very young, back in the 70’s) eventually things cooled down again.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies People have been saying that for the last 50 years or so that I know of, maybe even longer, and here I live in the bible belt where churches are constructed every day.

True faith can blind more completely than just about anything. It will survive as long as people continue believe in it and I’ve yet to see any meaningful sign of that belief wavering.

Mankind does not like being alone.

as ‘horrible’ as this sounds, i have to agree with a video i watched the other day. the child abuse thing is really ‘not a big deal’ when you compare it to how much harm they are doing by telling people in africa that condoms increase your chance of getting aids. people are currently dropping dead in these areas at the same speed that hitler was killing jews. the pope has practically caused genocide with his words. sadly, i think they are not going any place any time soon.

@poisonedantidote Although I agree that the Catholic church should not be speaking out against condoms, I find it to be a crime against health and humanity. I am pretty sure that Africa is only 15% Catholic more or less. Feel free to correct me. Possibly in certain countries in Africa the percentage is very high?

The Africans, I will make a huge generalization, are spreading AIDS like crazy because of social mores and beliefs that have nothing to do with the Catholic church from what I understand. Many men believe that having sex with a virgin girl will get rid of the disease, so they rape elementary age girls (so of course that girl has a high risk of becoming infected because she is very likely to tear). There is a strong culture of having mistresses, and very young ones at that. So even if we could get a handle on the children being born being free of AIDS, and if those children only had sex among each other, the number would be far less, but because infected adults continue to have sex which much younger, much much younger girls/women, they hand it down to the next generation.

I also think that even if many of these African men knew about condoms, they still would not use them. We see it in the states. Men from more macho cultures with little education don’t want to use them, and the women many times go along. I think men in general in the US wear condoms to avoid getting a girl pregnant. I don’t even think they worry much about disease to be honest (I am speaking of heterosexual men). But, I am not a man, so I am not sure. If I am right, these cultures where people have babies all of the time and it is accepted culturally, they have little motivation to wear a condom.

I blame the education system in Africa more than the church and I blame the governments.

Beliefs in Africa are often a real hybrid of traditional primal religion with ancestor worship and witchdoctors can cure everything along with bits and pieces of Christianity spread by missionaries.

But also could it be due to lack of education in areas in Africa? Yeah the Catholic church is to blame to a certain extent with their stance that condoms are bad but you are also fighting against cultures that go back generations…however I do feel the Catholic church needs to change with the times…it comes across as backward with certain issues…the world has moved on…we are no longer still in the Middle Ages

As with similar scandals in any sector of society, the roman catholic church scandals will soon be forgotten by most, as soon as the next scandal arises. The catholic church is not the only organization afflicted with this stigma, in the US, they also exist in Washington DC, in state governments and even in the public school settings. The Roman Catholic Church has a high profile so naturally, media-based reporting is internationally exposed.

@cytonic_horus @poisonedantidote I wanted to expand on why I blame the government. I saw a show once where they spoke to men high in government in one of the African countries and they said they can’t educate the people about sex because the topic is taboo. I just saw on 60 minutes last night a clergy man in Africa saying the problem continues because with each new group of young teens who do not even know how they get AIDS unsafe sexual behaviors continue.

Now, my father worked for Surgeon General Koop when AIDS hit America in the 80’s. Koop, a conservative man, went to the administration and basically said, “we have to get on the airwaves and out in the media how AIDS is transmitted, we have to promote condom use.” The right wing government we had at the time said no to him. The government was not going to talk about sex to the masses, especially about a gay man’s disease. ~nice~ In the US famous people, actors, and moms of hemophilic children who were dying from contaminated medicine organized and got the real word out at first. Sorry to be on a rant, but even in the US we suck about this stuff. Our puritanical views allow peopple to die. Women with Cervical cancer (information only really was delivered to the masses when Merck made a vaccine and could make money from it, even though we have known for 20 years HPV causes cancer), just 30 years ago people would not say breast cancer to a group of people. It all makes me sick.

I don’t think this will destroy the Church, but neither do I think it will just go away. Child abuse in the Catholic Church has been big news in the United States since at least 2002, when Archbishop Law of Boston resigned over his cover up of child abuse. It now seems that he was simply following Vatican policy. This has been going on as a major news story for at least nine years now, that’s not just the scandal of the week. Jokes about Catholic priests as pedophiles have been part of the collective consciousness for some time now. This is a long term stain on the reputation of the Church.

For the parishioner’s sakes, I hope it survives, as I hope anything would survive that causes a great mass of humanity to try to be better people. Have you ever noticed how damn near impossible it is to motivate billions of people globally? It can’t be done. Not even countries are motivated to change for the better. Everybody has their own agendas. It usually takes something hideously bad to motivate such a large number toward a common goal that is anything more than a basic need. Religion is the only thing in the history of humankind that motivates us toward a common goal without some horrible atrocity happening first.

I don’t see this as a Catholic thing, but human thing. As long as a HUMAN has absolute control, they will be corrupted absolutely. Combine that with the fact that humans hate change, and you end up where we are now – creating questions and discussions on topics that ought not exist in the first place. As long as there are humans, this problem WILL exist in various arenas. The only thing that changes are the faces.

Is it still here? How could anyone remain in an organization with so many prove child molesters running the show?

@davidbetterman It is my assertion that the reason it still exists is because people need something to believe in that promises strength where they feel they are powerless. They take shelter under that promise, but do not realize that thier need is so strong that they are similtaneously sacrificing common sense, other people (in this case, children), or truth, in order to have that need met, no matter what the arena. In this case it is religion, but there are plenty of examples that make this a pervasive issue amidst humanity that will never go away.

@phillis Hard to believe anyone is insane enough to believe there is strength to be found from a religion which condones this sort of activity and actually protects the pedophile priests…
And I was once an altar boy. ;)

@davidbetterman Humans have created astounding works of art, and buildings that last for thousands of years, amongst the impressive list of manmade wonders. But they have always been powered by emotion (often accompanied by greed) on every single thing they have created. People have been sacrificed for a hell of a lot less, than those who were forced to help create these things. People go to unimaginable lengths to assume and hold onto power. What they choose to keep a death grip on is of no consequence….except in the case of religion.

As a victim of severe child abuse, I might abhor crimes against children even more than the average joe on the street. I actually appreciate that prisoners kill those in thier midst who hurt children. But even I can see that, while sacrificing the emotional life of even ONE child is a tragedy, disbanding a religion that millions follow is tantamount to setting free an entire populus to do as they please, as we will have effectively removed their moral compass. The best thing to do is work toward bringing down those who allowed the perpetrations of these lecherous souls and be done with it. There is nothing wrong with Catholicism, itself. I may not agree with all thier tenets, but those tenets serve an undeniable purpose.

The Catholic Church has survived worse scandals.

@Judi @phillis

I suppose the Inquisition was a tad worse…

@davidbetterman ; yes, that and more.

@davidbetterman Yes, it was. So were many atrocities perpetuated in the name of religion (jihad, anyone?). It is important that we realize that the Spanish inquisition, just like Jihad, was (and is) perpetuated by a few corrupt heads at the top who could wield absolute power to exert control over the followers. It is NOT the religion, itself.

@phillis It is also interesting to note that the Spanish Inquisition was run by the Jesuits, my old high school teachers.

I will begin immediately taking up a collection to help offset your hefty therapy costs. :)

tanks luv

I wish people would stop supporting pedophiles but I guess priests need lovin’ too
As long as people are indoctrinated as babies before they have a say in the matter it will continue.

I don’t know why God hasn’t put a stop to all this molestation…oh wait I know…because there is no God.

Actually @JackiePaper , the Free Will God gifted all of us is why He hasn’t put a stop to this molestation.

ever wondered why, with all the things condemned in the bible, from gay sex to shellfish and mixed fibres, sex with kids is not among them? god condones it.

@ragingloli I think it seems like a leap to say that if it is not condemned that it is condoned.

@JLeslie
I disagree. The bible is quick to condemn even the smallest thing, like eating pork, shellfish, or wearing mixed fibres. The lack of condemnation of sex with children can only mean 2 things: It is either so unimportant that he either forgot or did not bother to mention it, or he condones it. You may flip a coin.

@ragingloli I’ll think about what you said. Do you think the Priests actually think or thought it was ok? Condoned as you would say. From what I understand Christianity condemns sex, except for procreation within marriage. At least, that is what I have been told. Having sex with a child isn’t going to get you a baby, especially if it is a man with a boy.

@JLeslie
I think that falls under both gay sex and sex outside marriage, so no, I do not think the priests thought it was ok.

@ragingloli So indirectly the bible does forbid sex with children. I guess an exception might be that the bible seems ok with 14 year olds marrying 30 year olds.

@JLeslie
”So indirectly the bible does forbid sex with children”
Not more than sex with women. As long as they are married and of the opposite gender, they are fair game.

@JLeslie since at the time of the writing (or at least “collection of earlier writings”) of the Bible having sex with minors (of either sex) was common practice for Greeks and Romans alike, I’d say that the reason there are no proscriptions against it in the Bible is that it was tacitly if not explicitly condoned. I’m not a biblical scholar, but I know a little about the history of that time.

When the average live span was 30–40, people married younger. It was not uncommon to be married with children at 15. The definition of a child has changed over the last 2000 years.

@ragingloli Good point.

@CyanoticWasp I am not sure what to think. It is so appalling to me. I do know that some of the cases with the priests were 18 year old priests and 15 year old boys, that happens in high school all of the time, so I am loath to call that pediphilia, unless there was trully an abuse of the position. That the 15 year old actually felt prayed upon, rather than wanting to do it. Way back in the day I think they took young men into the priesthood as early as the age of 15. I find that very different than the cases recently publicized involving priests in their 30, 40, 50’s and young children.

@Judi Great insight…actually, the life span back then was more like 15 -18!

@davidbetterman Well, the average life span is deceptive when looking at 100 years ago or more, because it is an average and infant mortality was incredibly high and so the stats are not really good, and even then I do think it was around 30–40 years of age not 18. So people did live until their 60’s probably, I have never seen all of the data actually, to balance out all of those deaths at 2 months of age..

Well, Methuselah says your both wrong, and he’s pissed that you guys didn’t include him. He’s filed a formal complaint in fluther’s front office. I think there are going to be seniors wheeling themselves around in circles in a picket line, too :)

It’s time more district attorneys went to court to get indictments for the collaborating superiors of child raping priests for keeping the crimes quiet and reassigning them to new posts where they could rape more children. I hope the Pope gets arrested the next time he visits the US or Germany.

Do district attorneys have the guts? Do judges and juries have the guts?

The criminals should get flushed out of the Catholic church. Then it has a chance to survive.

The pope is supposed to be visiting Britain in September, but I dont know how the British public feel about this man coming here?

@Sandydog – Are there any child rape cases in the UK committed by priests the Vatican knew about?

Matt – not too sure about cases here – possibly well covered up. Difficult to believe that were different from any other country.

Of course they were buggerring litlte boys in the UK too. It is simply preposterous to think otherwise.
The Greeks and the English practically invented the idea.

@davidbetterman Could you brush up on your cynicism and common sense a little more, please? Your statements are too ambiguous. I never have any idea what you’re really thinking. :)

@phillis Great idea. I will go back to school to learn these important aspects of life…many thanks for helping me change my rotten ways :)

@Snarp – I’m really sick of the Vatican restricting their apologies to the victims. We need an apology on their cover-up and priest transfer strategy.

For all of you following this you will be interested to know that Richard Dawkins will bring charges against the pope and try to have him arrested if he goes ahead with his planned visit to Britain!!
Interesting times ahead.

Holy crap (bahahaha!)! I can’t wait to see how this turns out. I am sure the Vatican will have a lovely spin on why the Pope changed his tour plans. Cowards. Thanks, @Sandydog.

Although I resent Dawkins antireligious crusade I support him in this case. I read that Dawkins’s lawyers will exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998. But Pinochet was no longer in charge when being arrested. The Pope seems to protected by diplomatic immunity because more than 170 countries, including the UK and the US, have diplomatic relations with the Vatican.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100401/ts_nm/us_pope_abuse

Semi-relevant fun-fact:
The age of consent in Vatican State is 12.

@ragingloli Interesting.

According to Wikipedia

The Vatican does not have its own separate criminal code. [. . .] the Vatican State generally uses current Italian national law, as well as regional and municipal laws for Rome, as long as they do not conflict with ecclesiastical law or laws specifically promulgated by Pope for the Vatican. As a result, the age of consent is the same as that of Italy. [. . .] The claim is sometimes found that “In the Vatican State, there is an equal age of consent set at 12 years of age”, but this is not correct. The misunderstanding derives from the fact that, as noted above, Vatican Law follows Italian law. In 1929, when the Lateran Treaty was signed, the age of consent in Italy was 12, and so the same was true then in Vatican City. However, since that time the Italian law has been changed, and so the laws of Vatican City [ . . .]

Check your “fun facts” before you spread rumors around the Internet.

To answer the OP’s question: The Catholic Church has gone through cycles of decay and regeneration for its entire history. It’s not going away.

They just allowed condoms. Well, only a tiny little bit.