Racially are we heading back into the 60's?

We’re not headed back; but there is behavior resembling the 60’s. And now as back then, it is lead with ignorance and fear.

It seems like it’s OK to discriminate if you are a person of color, but not if you are white.
That is what it looks like from where I am. Reverse discrimination abounds, and “it seems” to be accepted and even expected at times.
We all have different perspectives, we live in different areas, we don’t all have the same experiences. That is what is happening where I live. It isn’t something new, it’s been happening for a while.

Honesty, I think all this has done is shown the world America’s true colours. A deeply racist society, paranoid, & armed to the teeth, with a sprinkling of sanity round the edges. Pretty scary from the outside.

Breitbart is a wingnut. Don’t believe any of the trash you see on his site.

There will always be a few cavemen who think the Earth is flat or that there are multiple human species alive today. Human ignorance is an unfortunate phenomenon.

@wilma For me this is new for blacks to be discriminating against blacks.

All of this is nothing new. “Oreo,” for example, has been a derisive term applied to all blacks who support causes and candidates most other blacks do not.

Gee, black conservatives mocked for signing on with an organization that is populated by racist whites? Who would have thunk it. And these same conservatives are willing to use names they say they were called to advance their political agenda? Stunning news.

Yes, I know there are people in the tea party who aren’t racist (much). But they also have Tom Tancredo speaking at their national convention about re-instituting poll tests to wild applause. When you have an organization that is this nebulous and difficult to describe, but that seems to be based in little other than anger, then you had better expect that others will define you by your loudest, angriest segment, which is mostly racist.

@IchtheosaurusRex How can you say a direct quote from the chairman of the Frederick Douglass Foundation trash or lacking in truth or substance??

“I’ve been told I hate myself. I’ve been called an Uncle Tom. I’ve been told I’m a spook at the door,” said Timothy F. Johnson, chairman of the Frederick Douglass Foundation, a group of black conservatives who support free market principles and limited government.

@Snarp

Do you have any idea what you’re taking about, or do you simply lable everything you don’t like “racist?”

@Cruiser , “A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies” – Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

Breitbart has a talent for taking bits and pieces of legitimate news articles, sound bites, and video clips, and weaving them into things that look like something they’re not, all to support his particular brand of screed. Anything you see on his site is going to be some concoction like that.

@CaptainHarley Are you arguing there aren’t any racists at tea party gatherings? That calling black Congressmen niggers isn’t racist? That when you have an organization that anybody who wants to can claim to be a member of means that those people represent that organization as much as anyone else can claim to?

We are far from an advanced species. Ignorance and stupidity will always be with us.

The racists have always been there, they’ve just become emboldened. I wish they’d crawl back in to their holes.

If we go to Bermuda we can jump into the wormhole and find out.

I’d like to see all the conservatives go into places they usually don’t go and try to convince the people there of the virtues of their cause. And if they won’t, then why not?

It’s what the Democrats did. And if conservatives can get the taint of racism and classism off them, then they might have some luck. Unless one is a masochist, people don’t usually affiliate with folks who don’t appear to like them. The Tea Party hasn’t done anything to reach out and win adherents among middle class or working class POC or the poor of any colour, and having members who are willing to call other people niggers and fags on video doesn’t help.

A conservative can’t just flap his gums asserting “it’s not like that” on a partisan website. I’m Missouri. Show me why I need to join your side. What’s in it for me?

@Cruiser I don’t think it’s new, there is a thread here on Fluther, about “blacks talking white”, I think it’s much the same problem.

@aprilsimnel

You had a pretty good argument, right up to the point where you said, “What’s in it for me?” Not only does that question undermie all of what you said earlier, it exemplifies why so many in this Country are unalterably opposed to the direction in which we’re heading!

I would say that racism and reverse racism abound. Part of it is human nature, and it will always be there. Part of it is because of idiotic laws that state you have to have so many women, so many minorities working at place. Aren’t we past that people? I think, or would like to hope we are. I don’t want a job because I am Native American and am a woman. I want it because I was the BEST candidate for the job, not the just minority race and gender candidate for the job.

It’s truly sad, I thought we were moving into a “color-blind” society. Bad economic times have historically brought the worst in people. The Nazis thrived in bad times, too. Coffee anyone?

@CyanoticWasp Groan! Not the wormholes again. I think I need to go home and watch more Stargate Atlantis on my new plasma…

@CaptainHarley, people joined the Tea Party because they believed that the health care initiative wasn’t for them. So the opposite is what? I have not heard the stirring rhetoric of “Ask not…” coming from them or any conservative. Granted, it may be only rhetoric from the Dems, but they put out that message.

Conservatives need to get their act together. Most black people of my acquaintance are socially conservative, but fiscally liberal. So how do we meet the challenge for everyone in this country to be wiling to make sacrifices? Not everyone is going to agree on what the good life or the moral life is or how to get it, or whether or not to live and let live or to try to get people to conform to some standard.

I’ve got a roommate right now who is a conservative because he feels that being one will put him with the right people who will make him rich. That’s what conservatism does for him. Do you see what I’m saying now? People will say pie in the sky stuff, but when it comes down to their money and quality of life in the US, no one is playing around. They want to know what will benefit them and their families. And that’s Americans of all colours.

Racism in the US? You’re fucking kidding me.No way, surely that can’t be.

@syz hit the nail on the head in my opinion.

Racism and the racial divide haven’t gone away since the 60’s. Racists just haven’t been getting the mainstream media coverage they are now. Obama being elected has given these jokers a reason to come out of the woodwork and of course we have obliged their desire for attention by giving their craziness lots of air time. The black verses white sentiment never went away for certain segments of the population, and it isn’t leaving us any time soon.

Near as I can tell there have always been people of all races with beliefs that lie all along the political spectrum. There is no way to categorize anyone’s political beliefs based on their race, anyone who tries is wasting their time.

Let’s see, the sixties. Blacks in the south were systematically prevented from voting. They were not allowed to sit at the same lunch counter, use the same water fountain, or even buy tickets from the same box office as whites. Blacks on buses in the south had to surrender their seats to whites and sit at the back of the bus. Blacks in the south lived in fear of being lynched, beaten, or convicted of a crime they didn’t commit with no evidence whatever. They could not hold many jobs and were relegated to garbage collection and janitorial work. They couldn’t call the police when they were in trouble because if the perpetrator was white his word would be believed over theirs and the innocent victim would wind up in jail instead of the criminal. And those who protested these injustices (black or white) were beaten, stoned, lynched, shot, and their homes burned to the ground. The perpetrators of these crimes were rarely tried, or even arrested, and when they were were found not guilty by judges and juries that were often party to the crimes in the first place. Blacks in the north fared a bit better since much of the legal foundation of Jim Crow was not practiced there, but still could not expect fair treatment from the justice system and could not expect to get a decent job or education.

Yes, a handful of black conservatives being called names for endorsing policies that the majority of blacks likely see as not being in their best interest is definitely a return to that time. What an absurd comparison.

I find the question to be frankly insulting to the memory of the people who died so that black people in the American South could vote.

No, this isn’t the 60s, although there are many people of a variety of hues still stuck there. I am so tired of race being used as an excuse, a reason, a defense, a justification, a demographic. Our very DNA proves that we are ONE RACE.
Remember that you are being racist when you make a decision based upon skin color, whether the decision is favorable or unfavorable to the person in question. When you make a judgment about an individual based upon your feelings about a group, that is prejudice.
I think it’s a huge step in the right direction that many of my friends and colleagues, raised during those turbulent 60s, have raised their children to understand that we are one race. I was not raised with that perspective myself, but in part because of the lessons of the 60s it was a value I passed on to my children, and through them to my grandchildren.
Are we through learning this lesson, in all its permutations? Of course not, but the evidence shows me we will continue to evolve.

“Obama becoming President has polarized a segment of our country into a black versus white sentiment.”

I don’t see it.

@ChazMaz I wish I could say the same.

@Cruiser says: conservative blacks who are supporting the Tea Party movement are being called “Oreos”

Really? Both of them?
I am hearing a LOT of racism coming from the tea partiers and the right in general. People calling US Congressmen Niggers, throwing bricks thru windows, etc. I don’t hear anyone on the left doing this towards Michael Steele.

President Obama is neither black or white. he is both. and no, we are not heading back to anything like in the 60s. i was there and i experienced the whole 60s situation.

Look for another problem.

@Snarp You might appreciate this article from back in December about a mayor one town over from me. He states, “you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote, if that has stayed in there, things would be different….....” Only in the American South would they think of something like that. Here is the link to the article http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/dec/04/mayor-fires-at-obama-online/

@JLeslie I guess in some way I’m an optimist, since I still have the ability to be surprised that an elected official could be so ignorant.

@Snarp I am shocked all of the time. Honestly, I think the vast majority of the country is not racist, but there seems to be some hold outs. Recently on my facebook a “friend” of mine who is black and a local newscaster posted “The blackest White person’s list is out, and U.S. Congressman Steve Cohen is number 6 on the list. Right now, the morning crew is talking about the Whitest Black person. Two names have popped up…Clarence Thomas and Tiger Woods. I say Tiger tops the list. What say you?” The comments below were mostly funny, it was all done in the spirit of fun, they named the whitest balck people and the blackest white people. What became very clear is that the black people on the thread mostly associated whites with conservative right wingers. That to me is another product of living in the south. I hate to think that the black people where I live think that most white people are like that, but the truth is the majority of the white people here are conservative right wingers. I would not say they are all racist, not at all, but there still seems to be a divide between whites and blacks here in the midsouth. They might work together, but rarely socialize together from what I have observed.

It seems to me that we are going through a period of Hegelian dialectic; that is, a change has occurred that is progressive and there is a negative reaction to it from some. Out of this conflict, greater resolution will come. Fear and hatred are powerful motivators and we are seeing their ugly faces, but before now, it was impossible to imagine a Black man being elected president. If you read the wiki article I cited, Hegelianism posits that change is a spiral rather than a circle or straight line. It is my hope that we are slowly spiraling forward and not backwards!

@janbb I agree. Overall I am very optimistic about the future. I feel like we are in another period of great growth, and also I think some of the most horrible people will be dying soon, and we won’t have to contend with them.

One hears things like “racism” when they don’t like the message of those doing the talking. It’s time to get over not only racism, but the tendency to call everyone who disagrees with us a racist. Just because I don’t agree with stealing from the rich to give to the poor does NOT mean that I’m racist.

I beg to differ. One hears things like “racism” when racist behaviour is exhibited. it doesn’t mean that all conservatives are racist and I would certainly not call you one unless you were being racist.

@CaptainHarley And has anyone called you specifically a racist, or do you just feel like you’re being tarred with a broad brush when someone mentions the obvious racism of some in the Tea Party movement?

@Snarp I feel it personally, even though I’m neither a Tea Party-er nor a conservative, when people use associations the way you just did: “the obvious racism of some in the Tea Party movement”. It’s akin to saying “everyone else there except you, then”.

It’s as if people who don’t agree with Obama and the Democratic Party talk about “those lunatics on the left”, even though neither Obama nor most of the Democrats are lunatics (and not to mention that there are lunatics in every political persuasion… same as racists).

@Snarp

I think the comment speaks for itself.

@CyanoticWasp Why would you take personally a specific statement about a subset of people within a “political party” of which you are not a member?

On the other hand, you can find plenty of examples of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, and others specifically calling the entire Democratic party things at least as bad as “those lunatics on the left”, and claiming that anyone who opposed the invasion of Iraq, for example, “hates America”. They may not have called me racist, but they have very clearly labeled not just a fringe party like the green party, but the entire Democratic party, anyone on the left, anyone who disagreed with them as loony America haters. I think that attacking the Tea Party in general, or some in the Tea Party movement in particular, is a lot less of a broad generality than many prominent conservatives have used against liberals.

@CaptainHarley I’m glad you feel that way, but you’ve left me completely in the dark here.

@Snarp maybe because I don’t identify at all with the group of clowns you mentioned, but I do sympathize with a lot of the stated goals of the Tea Party-ers… even if I wouldn’t ever join that group, either. (And to the extent that it’s possible, I like associating with my fellow jellies.)

I guess my point is that your calling out a specific attribute of a minority of people in a group (and then naming the group as you did) seems to color the perception of the entire group, whether you intended that or not. And to give you the benefit of the doubt I’ll assume that was not your intent—but if it was, it’s intellectually lazy and somewhat cowardly (so I’m hoping it wasn’t your intent).

If I can explain in a better example, maybe:
I don’t agree with the Democratic Party platform, and some people in the Democratic party have (what I consider to be) lunatic ideas about wealth redistribution and ‘social justice’. However, I would never go around talking about “the obvious Communist leanings of some in the Democratic Party.” If I need to, I’ll call them out individually and as selectively as I can. I can disagree with “the Democratic Party” without demonizing the whole group with an undeserved slur.

@CyanoticWasp The problem in this case is that the “Tea Party” is a group without an identity and without a record, with nothing but nebulous goals that no one really disagrees with and statements with no meaning and a whole lot of anger. As opposed to the Democratic Party which has some very clear positions on issues and has a very long and clear record of not being Communist. As such it seems that there is in fact a struggle underway to define what exactly the Tea Party is. I think it is more than reasonable then to point out that there are some who claim to speak for this group who exhibit racism. When they invite speakers to their national gatherings who talk about poll tests and are applauded, I think we have to question the identity of that party. When the loudest protesters at their events are often shouting racial epithets, then we have to question the identity of the party. This party is forming now, from scratch, and people should know who they are choosing to associate themselves with and that this party has not done much to to tell the racist element that is trying to associate itself with the party that it is not welcome. A clear statement that if you are a racist you are not a member of this group and we don’t want your vote would be a start.

And for the record, “It’s as if people who don’t agree with Obama and the Democratic Party talk about “those lunatics on the left”, even though neither Obama nor most of the Democrats are lunatics” – that’s not an “as if”, that happens all the time.

@Snarp but no one demands such a clear statement even from members of the Democratic Party “that they not espouse racism.” (Okay, on the surface that would seem to be a given, right? But the Democratic Party through its policies clearly does promote a kind of reverse racism sometimes—and since “everybody knows the Democratic Party isn’t racist” they’re never called on that.)

And I agree that the example I used “those lunatics in the Democratic Party” is used all the time… unless you agree with the sentiment, isn’t it about time that that stopped?

I think that the ongoing racism is just closer to the surface… more visible. The PC stranglehold on expressing it is loosening due to America being a racial pressurcooker right now while, concurrently, PC is clamping down harder than ever. There is a resulting significant rise in hate groups in the US.

@wilma Uhm… as a “person of color” I would catch hell for racist comments against whites, blacks, or anyone else (I am neither white nor black).

Oh I forgot. When I said that there is a resulting rise in hate groups, it is all hate groups, not just white ones. I wanted to point that out because many people see “hate group” and only think “white hate group.”

I agree with you @Arisztid. You probably would catch hell, as would I.
I don’t understand why it still happens.

@Snarp I said, “One hears things like ‘racism’ when they don’t like the message of those doing the talking. It’s time to get over not only racism, but the tendency to call everyone who disagrees with us a racist. Just because I don’t agree with stealing from the rich to give to the poor does NOT mean that I’m racist.”

One of the primary “threads” in the current discussion about racism is that those who are poor and black think that anyone who has more than they do is racist if they don’t give a lot of their income ( through taxes ) to those who are not as well off. Make sense now? : )

@CaptainHarley Can you cite your sources for that statement, please?

What statement, which one?

Your second paragraph about one of the primary threads. I wonder where you are hearing that idea, because it’s not one that I have read.

@CaptainHarley I don’t think you are a racist because you don’t want to support social systems for the poor. I do think that most white people who are racist tend to be ones who also are saying that same line you have stated I don’t agree with stealing from the rich to give to the poor. It is two different things. Maybe you feel lumped in with the racists, but I don’t think you should.

@janbb You must not listen to or read the news, or watch many videos on YouTube. I see that all the time and I’m not even looking for it!

@JLeslie

Then again, I’m not rich either. Everything about me reeks of Middle Class. : )

@CaptainHarley Is that Middle Class? I thought it was two day old tuna.

@CaptainHarley Guess we read and watch different news; haven’t read it in the NY Times or heard it on NPR.

@CaptainHarley I don’t get it? What does rich have to do with it?

@JLeslie ”“I do think that most white people who are racist tend to be ones who also are saying that same line you have stated I don’t agree with stealing from the rich to give to the poor.””

You just indicted the entire Republican party and ⅔ of the independents of the US (blacks included) that has to be one of the more reckless statements I have ever heard!!! WOW! =O

@janbb Most people tend to watch or read those things which reinforce already held beliefs. The secret to a nuanced view of the world is to read and listen and watch onivorously.

@CaptainHarley I agree with you on that but would still like to see specific sources if you have them.

@Cruiser No, you misunderstood, or maybe I am guilty of not wording it well. I am saying the white people who are racist tend to be right wing republicans. I think it is a very very small percentage of republicans, right wing republicans included who are racist.

@janbb

I don’t keep records of that sort of thing, but I’ll be sure to share the next one I see with you. : )

@Cruiser Being fiscally conservative, or wanting fewer taxes does not make anyone a racist. That is ridiculous to me.

@CaptainHarley Works for me – thanks.

@janbb

I can’t cite this, but I read somewhere in the news ( I read a LOT of news ) that one of the recipients of government largesse said, “I don’t know where he [ President Obama ] got the money, and I don’t care.”

I just ran accross this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T__t2EygPkQ

I happen to agree with the speakers that IF Obama is going to bail out the fat cats, then he should help the poor as well. I just don’t think he should have done either of those things on a scale that threatens the financial future of the Country, and of our children.

LOL…Racially, we never left the 60s.

@JLeslie Again I think you saying…
“I am saying the white people who are racist tend to be right wing republicans.”
is again an awfully reckless statement and truly wonder where you get your information from or what part of America you live in??

Also couldn’t agree with you more on your second comment to me!

@CaptainHarley Thanks for posting that. I do have something of a quibble with it in that it may have been edited to slant it one way; youtube videos are not necessarily a reliable news source. In any case, they seem to be criticizing Obama rather than conservatives.

@CaptainHarley Well, now that I see your point, I fundamentally disagree with it anyway. I have seen no evidence of such being a widespread viewpoint. In fact, I think the language use to express your point is intentionally slanted. “those who are poor and black think that anyone who has more than they do is racist if they don’t give a lot of their income ( through taxes ) to those who are not as well off.” is also a sweeping generalization. I’m quite confident that many who are poor and black do not think that anyone who doesn’t give them their money is racist. They’re far more concerned with cops who shoot unarmed black men outside their own front doors and beat black men senseless in jail just for fun. They likely also think that the racism plays a role in they’re being poor, which to some extent is true, even if much of the problem is the racism of past generations that helped create conditions that are difficult to overcome en masse even decades later.

Blathering PC platitudes will not alter the facts. Yes, there still are police abuses, and that must be delt with, but simply pointing with alarm does not change the fact that there is a sizeable ( and gowing! ) entitlement culture ( which, BTW, includes whites and almost all other races, not just blacks ) that insists those with money OWE those who have less of it.

@CaptainHarley See, there’s our fundamental disagreement, those of us with money do owe those who have less of it, and it has nothing to do with race.

Wow, @Snarp, what leads you to that conclusion?

I realize this is asking a lot from the politically correct, but try putting yourself in the place of the man ( white, black, brown or otherwise ) who, at an early age, goes to work everyday and saves his money, starts a small business, works his ass off for 16–18 hours a day to make it a success, winds up relatively well off ... and THEN is told that he must share it will those who did not work, did not save, and did nothing to pull themselves out of the quagmire into which they were born.

I hate being called from the “politically correct.” I’d much prefer to say I have a social conscience. And my parents and husband were in that exact situation and all believe in sharing their wealth with those who have been less forturnate.

@janbb

Well, good for you. I feel much the same way. I donate to several charitable causes, including a local food bank. However, my donations are non-coerced. It’s the idea that the government DEMANDS that we pay an arm and a leg in taxes to support those who WILL NOT work, and which decides who gets the money extorted from those of us who worked for it.

@CaptainHarley Look, I’m sorry if I ticked you off early in this thread, but your language and your approach right now is not conducive to any kind of progress. You are spouting talking points and making all kinds of inaccurate assumptions.

First, and I will say this politely only once, calling me and my ideas “politically correct” just so they can be safely boxed up and ignored is a fallacy, a disservice to honest dialogue, and just plain wrong. My ideas aren’t politically correct, if they were they’d be the law of the land instead of being ridiculed daily by most in the media and government.

Second, you’re older than me, you’ve worked hard, but you have no idea how hard I’ve worked to get where I am. I’ve done all the things you mention except start my own business, I am relatively well off, but in my case I could still be wiped out in short order if I were to lose my job. In spite of my relative wealth, having only a mortgage that I can afford as debt, and a decent savings cushion, one major home repair or the loss of my paycheck could be disastrous. It’s people who things like that happen to that I want to protect.

Which segues nicely into point three: Some people are lazy and do nothing to help themselves, but to assume that that is true of all beneficiaries of liberal social policies is another gross generalization. There are plenty of people who work just as hard for just as many hours and are still poor. I’m sure there are those who will simply tell me that this is wrong, but I tell you now I was one of them, I have known many of them, and they are not poor because they are lazy and selfish, they are poor because not everyone can be wealthy. Because they never had the opportunity to get a better education and still don’t, because they didn’t get lucky at some point along the way, because they got unlucky at a few points along the way, because they got sick, because they thought that working all their life at a job that needed to be done, even a menial one, was a good life and then they got laid off and had nothing or their pension got cut, because they didn’t want to start their own business (imagine if everyone was a small business owner – somebody’s got to be an employee), or because they did start their own business and it failed, not due to lack of effort, but due to circumstances beyond their control. All these kinds of people are poor, and if a few lazy people manage to game the system so that we can help these people, the people whose hard work ultimately is part of the reason we are well off, then I’m OK with that.

You can call that a politically correct platitude if you want to, but that’s reality, and those are real people, and we’d all live in a world of shit and filth with no electricity without them.

@Snarp

No, it’s not a platitudinous, but as I said before, it’s the coercive aspect of government assistance which most bothers me, AND the fact that the decisions as to whom to help are made by faceless bureaucrats who owe alliegance to no one but other government functionaries.

Sorry. I cannot continue this just now… have to go to work on the home my wife and I are rebuilding. : /

@CaptainHarley Hear that you have to go right now. Just want to say that the US has about the lowest, if the lowest, tax rate of most Western societies and provides the least amount of social services.

Uh-oh, now we’re really gonna get stung.

@janbb I get that you’re generous, but I don’t think that’s @CaptainHarley‘s point. (I won’t carry his water for him, but I share some of his opinion, so I don’t mind joining the discussion.)

I was questioning @Snarp‘s assertion that the well-off “owe” (his word) the less well-off.

I also disagree with his assertion that ‘we can’t all be wealthy’, but… one battle at a time.

@CyanoticWasp Put simply, somebody has to take out the trash, clean the toilets, mine the coal, pick the produce, slaughter the pigs, and prepare the food. The market is unwilling to pay these people adequately, but that doesn’t mean that it’s right for them to live in fear that one missed paycheck will put them on the street so that we can all get 99 cent cheeseburgers. We are well off because they are doing the dirty jobs for less money than it takes to put a roof over their heads and food on the table. Damn right we owe them.

Ah, I see now. Our difference is in the definition of the word “adequately”. I pay what I’m charged for trash removal, toilet cleaning, coal, produce and pork… or I look elsewhere for a better deal, or forgo the purchase and do the thing myself or live without. I don’t steal things, but I don’t pay more than the asking prices, either. Why would I?

And that’s part of my point: we don’t need to pay anyone for trash removal, toilet cleaning, coal… etc. etc. We could do it ourselves or do without. The fact is that “trash removal” (to stick to one thing) is a job that’s not going to demand a high premium—so why should anyone pay more for that than the guy who does the thing is willing to accept?

This is where it may be time to introduce my disagreement with your assertion that “we can’t all be rich”. I think we can, and not just in Utopia. Maybe we won’t all be rich at the same time and to the same degree (that would be Utopia), but we can all get there. (As a matter of fact, it’s hard to argue against the fact that everyone now alive in North America is ‘richer’ than any king or queen of Medieval Europe. Not as powerful, okay, and certainly not as rich ‘relative to the rest of his contemporaries’, but rich in absolute terms of access to goods and services. That’s not magic; that’s the market. A lot of people in Amazonia and New Guinea, for example, are no worse off than they were 1000 years ago—and no better off, either. They don’t have a market that drives for “improvement of goods and services”.)

We could discuss the role of government in ‘helping those who fall through the cracks’ and endure the misfortunes you mentioned; that’s a discussion worth having. But to automatically assume that “we owe” because certain occupations don’t command a wage that you or I would consider “acceptable” or “a living wage” (or whatever the term of the day is now) is a non-starter. (I also don’t insult many people by thinking that they are “only qualified to take out the trash or clean toilets”, either. I think if people settle for those occupations, then they have to settle for the going wage for them, too.)

@CyanoticWasp You seem to be discounting the fact that different people have different levels of ability and access to resources. I really don’t think there’s a level playing field here or anywhere else.

@CyanoticWasp And there you have it, fundamental disagreement. I wrote a long answer, but I think we’ve left the topic behind. So in short, I believe wealth is always relative. And I believe that sometimes the market doesn’t provide acceptable solutions, and that we are all so well off in the wealth at least as much because of government largess as because of our glorious free market system, puritan work ethic, and American go getter spirit. Obviously our disagreement on these fundamental issues isn’t going to get decided here on Fluther today, so I’ll let it go at that. Especially since you don’t seem to be blaming the poor to the extent that some others do.

@janbb I don’t discount different levels of ability at all. But I also don’t discount different levels of determination, will, inventiveness, courage, risk acceptance… so many attributes of a person. Of course we’re different! That’s what allows us to have markets in the first place. Playing fields shift all the time. There’s not so much call for knights-errant and cowboys these days, or ladies in waiting; the Middle Ages sucked for accountants and insurance salesmen, too.

@Snarp it’s not a case of “blaming” anyone for anything. But I will say that generally speaking “the poor” (and “the rich” and everyone else in the world) are “responsible for their own condition”, even if you disagree with that on every level. Do you feel not responsible for your condition?

We all have people (and circumstances) to thank for the good things that happen to us, and I suppose to some degree we can often point to people (and other circumstances) that prevented us from achieving or attaining more. But even if someone gave you a hand up, you had to take the steps. And if someone knocks you down, then you’re responsible if you stay down.

Leaving “government” out of the picture for now, I’m perfectly willing to give people a hand up any time that I can. But I almost never, ever, feel like I “owe” that to anyone.

@CyanoticWasp On some level I agree that we are responsible for our own circumstances, but, as you said, not entirely. I also know that I am incredibly fortunate. I guess on some level it’s a question of how much responsibility, and at what points in the process that we disagree on.

@Snarp I think you’re missing the disagreement—though there certainly is one—I disagree with the consideration of “obligation”. It sometimes amazes me how responsible I feel for everyone around me—but that doesn’t translate to “obligation”.

Someday (if your luck holds out) you’ll also be old, and it will help your outlook on life a lot if you will have dropped the notion of “owing” others. By all means if you do have obligations and debts, then pay them with interest. But “responsibility” and “obligation” are a day and night difference.

@CyanoticWasp Yes, we clearly disagree on that. I believe that we are well off because others are poor. And to me that means I owe them.

@Snarp I hope someday you learn that you’re wrong about that. Completely wrong.

@CyanoticWasp Well it’s taken me a long time to go from thinking like you to thinking this way, so I hope not.

@Cruiser I just don’t think you get what I am saying. Let me try another way. Let’s say there are 50 people in America who are racist and say things like “I don’t want to pay for someone else’s healthcare with my money through taxes.” What party do you think they most likely identify with, Republican or Democrat? That does not mean the party and all of the people in it are racist, or that people who don’t want social programs are racist. I would go as far to say that there are racist democrats also, but honeslty, I don’t witness that as much, especially where I live.

I live outside of Memphis and the link I posted above was an article that represents not just what this asshole mayor said, but they are sentiments I hear all of the time around me. His facebook status had many people agreeing with him. Unfortunately Republicans have these idiots in their party right now, and these people are very vocal currently and getting attention. Honestly, when I lived in the Northeast and Florida it never occured to me that racism had anything to do with political party, it was not until I moved to the south.

I can’t believe I agree with @CaptainHarley!

@Snarp said, ”See, there’s our fundamental disagreement, those of us with money do owe those who have less of it, and it has nothing to do with race.”

WHAT!!! That is some sort of commie talk, right.

@CaptainHarley said, ”try putting yourself in the place of the man (white, black, brown or otherwise) who, at an early age, goes to work everyday and saves his money, starts a small business, works his ass off for 16–18 hours a day to make it a success, winds up relatively well off… and THEN is told that he must share it will those who did not work, did not save, and did nothing to pull themselves out of the quagmire into which they were born.”

I gotta agree with you Cap… This is America. You don’t owe anyone anything unless you choose to help them out.

@Snarp You said, “Yes, we clearly disagree on that. I believe that we are well off because others are poor. And to me that means I owe them.” Now you sound like Karl Marx. There may indeed be those somewhere who are rich off the labor of the poor, but there are FOUR elements of business creation: Land, Labor, Capital, and Entreprenuer. None can exist without the other. If not for the capital, labor would be unable to fend for itself in a modern economy. If not for the entreprenuer to bring them all together and take the risk of starting up a business, labor would have no jobs, and capital would sit there idle ( until the government decided to take it. Heh! ).

Sounds a bit like Groucho Marx, too.

LMAO @davidbetterman

Kinda frightening, ain’t it! LOL!

I know @CaptainHarley It is scary to think this may be the prevailing attitude of so many living here in the US.
Communism, here we come…

@davidbetterman

Actually, I was referring to your comment. “I can’t believe I agree with @CaptainHarley!” However it applies to the comment above as well. : )

@CaptainHarley Oh yeah…that was funny… But obviously we only differ slightly over the military stuff… and since you are a vet, it is understandable.

@CaptainHarley said: Try putting yourself in the place of the man ( white, black, brown or otherwise ) who, at an early age, goes to work everyday and saves his money, starts a small business, works his ass off for 16–18 hours a day to make it a success, winds up relatively well off… and THEN is told that he must share it will those who did not work, did not save, and did nothing to pull themselves out of the quagmire into which they were born.

Okay, that’s fair, but try putting yourself in the place of a person who had a decent education and job, worked hard and saved appropriately for retirement, has some medical problems, AND who just had his or her life savings wiped out because of the shenanigans of Bernie Madoff or Ken Lay. That person, who is now living on a fixed income, needs to be able to afford food, shelter, and medical care. Who is going to help him? It’s all well and good to say “charity,” but charitable contributions have been falling steadily over the last few years.

Do we, as a society, have a duty to help? I think we do. Lax regulation allowed Madoff and Lay to swindle people out of billions; our government, who allowed the laxity, should contribute to a solution.

@JLeslie Honestly I think I know what you are trying to say, you tough are painting with a dangerously wide brush that is frankly an example of why these issues get blown out of proportion. Again if you take your 50 people who don’t want to pay for others health care with their taxes hardly makes them racist and certainly doesn’t automatically align them with any one political party. Racist behavior is rearing it’s ugly head on both sides of the isle and from all colors of the spectrum. The bigger problem is apparently the source of the news and how it’s perceived as exampled here. Just because it was a republican involved and the news came from Breitbart or Fox it is condemned to be fictitious. Hard to have a good discussion of the facts or events when one is not willing to accept they exist.

@Dr_Dredd Good point. Too bad those people are screwed. The whole stock market debacle (including Enron, which was basically enabled by George Bush [remember him?]) and the housing market fiasco were actually planned to do exactly what they did…i.e. screw those good people out of their hard earned pensions, their land and their homes.
The people who managed to hold onto their financial asse(t)s are in no position to help most of those who got screwed.
It is really a shame to see the wealthy elite of America screwing the less fortunate, but this is as it has always been…and the folks who worked 30 years to see their pensions go up in smoke really should have seen this coming. I know I saw it coming back in the 70s, which is why I chose not to waste my time working for lowlife pricks who would screw me at the drop of a hat, and instead went out and lived life…
We as a society is an interesting term. There is no we as a society and there never has been.

@davidbetterman

Good points. The only thing holding us together as a society is submission to the law ( sorta, kinda ) and the fear that if we don’t pull together everything will come apart at the seams.

@CaptainHarley I surely hope this thing does not come apart at the seams. Most people will be unable to survive the new lifestyle were that to happen.

Too bad the laws (enforcement and judiciary [and executive]) are falling apart at the seams.

Then we must all somehow learn to pull in the same direction. It is my personal belief that hard times indeed are on the way, and the only way most of us have any chance at all of surviving them is through the sort of cooperation which made us top dog on this planet.

@CaptainHarley Good thinking… Maybe the hard times ahead will force people out of their cocoons and bring about just that sort of cooperation to which you allude…

Tom Lehrer summed up the PC movement before there was a PC movement in his 1965 song National Brotherhood Week

Yes, the song is funny. However, it is also very true. Before anyone blasts Mr. Lehrer for being anti Semitic, he is Jewish

I spoke in my first post about the pressurecooker that is causing PC to crack, PC grabbing like hell to hold the lid on.

I believe that most of what is thought of as the cause of the resurgence of racial tensions in this nation are not the true cause. I believe the true cause is the economic downturn because people gather together, rifts forming, the tighter the screws turn. The issue is not enough to go around, the rift between rich and poor widening, more falling from middle class to poor. The tensions have always been there, ready to resurface.

I shall post one more Tom Lehrer song (I have been a fan of his for decades) that sums up the end results if worldwide tensions do not ease: We Will All Go Together When We Go

@Cruiser I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am wondering if you can think of a recent occurance of a white democrat who was racist that the media has dwelled on? I am not asking this with sarcasm, I am asking it to check myself. Harry Reid is the only person I can think of that maybe some might bring up, but he was speaking positively about Obama, just very bad choice of words, so I don’t see how anyone can sum up that he is a racist, he wanted Obama to run.

Originally, I was trying to be understanding of @CaptainHarley concern about being lumped in with racists, just because he is a conservative republican, I was trying to reassure him I don’t think that way, and I don’t think most people do. So, honestly that you are offended by my words is surprising. I did not mean to offend or overgeneralize.

@JLeslie of course Harry Reid is racist! He’s just ‘nice’ about it, ‘on the right side’ and yes, he was ‘saying nice things about the president’: “He speaks pretty well, for a black man.” Uh huh. What a compliment! And from such a paragon as Harry Reid!

I think Joe Biden had some similar commentary prior to being put on the ticket in 2008 but I hardly pay attention to that, so don’t ask me for samples.

I believe that the reason many conservatives get riled when people speak of “the right-wing nutjobs, religious fundamentalist whackos and racists… and those others in the Republican Party” is the smear of guilt by association. Sort of like Harry Reid’s ‘compliment’ of the President: “Well, you’re not as bad as all the rest of ‘em.”

Damning with faint praise, in other words. I’m glad I’m not a conservative.

@CyanoticWasp He did not say Obama speaks well for a black man, he said he speaks well and can speak like a black man when needed, but not in those words exactly, I would have to look up the quote. Which to me does not mean that all blacks speak a certain way, it means that sometimes we can pretty accurately guess that someone is black by how they speak. If I am on the phone with someone and they speak mainstream middle American English, I have no idea if they are balck, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc, they could be anything, I would not even venture to guess what race they are. But, there are times when I am pretty sure I am talking to a black person, and I bet I would be right 90% of the time. I am not defending what Reid said, but I do not think he is a racist. Acknowledging differences in speech pattern is a fact not racist. The other day a friend of mine pointed out something I said as being typically Jewish, the way I phrased something. I don’t think he is an antisemite.

LOL Speak like a Black man!

Ever been to Jamaica, mon? The brothers speak the Queen’s English and they speak far more coherently than anyone in America…

Did you hear how those coal miners in West Virginia were speaking!

@davidbetterman They were slightly less coherent than the coal miners from China last week, if memory serves correctly.

This thread is getting frustrating for me. I am NOT saying the majority of black people speak a certain way. I am saying there is a subculture that has a certain dialect. The same way:

My mom is from the Bronx and adds an R to words that end in A

The same way

People from Chicago say “come with” when most of America says “come with me.”

The same way

People who call water fountains bubblers are most likely from Wisconsin

The same way

Living in Memphis if someone asks me, “where do I stay?” they are most likely black

The same way

People who say, “I am fixin’ to…” probably are from the south.

The same way

People who say, “I did said I would go to the picnic.” most likely learned Spanish as their first language.

But, obviously there are tons of people raised in the Bronx who don’t add an R, and people in the south who don’t use fixin’, and Hispanics who know how to use the past tense correctly. But IF they make those mistakes it is a “tell” of sorts.

And to go back to Reid, I don’t understand why intent means nothing. He did not want Obama to be slaving in the fields of a plantation or hanging from a tree, he was supporting him running for President of the United States. I don’t see how that makes him racist. It might at worst make him prejudice, prejudging, but he obviously allows for each person as an individual. Racist people don’t do that, they don’t look at people as individuals, they are just full of hate and out everyone into one basket.

We probably all consider Jeruba to be our resident expert in the English language. If I found out that she is actually a black woman, it would not surprise me. I don’t have an assumption that balck people don’t have a good command of the language. Obviously the color of your skin, hair, eyes, whether you are tall or short has nothing to do with anything really, it has to do with where you grew up, whether it be Jamaica or Wyoming, level of education, and other outside influences.

And lastly, Reid was speaking from a marketing perspective. Marketers look at demographics and psychographics all of the time. They talk in terms of black, white, Hispanic, income, age, education level and more. He used a very poor choice of words, but there are people all over the country analyzing and making generalization about groups, culture, and subcultures, and how they vote, and what they buy, and where they vacation. I say again intent.

@JLeslie My mom does that, too, with adding an R to words that end in A. She’s from Brooklyn. I guess it’s an outer-borough NYC thing… :-)

@Dr_Dredd Thank you. :)

I’m a black woman, who coincidentally lives in Memphis and I have no clue the correlation of “Living in Memphis if someone asks me, “where do I stay?” they are most likely black”. What an odd example and in my world of experience, dead wrong…

Racial stereotypes die hard, @TLRobinson

@TLRobinson Do you know white people who say that? I have not come across any, but it does not mean they do not exist.

@CaptainHarley I hope you are not saying that I assume all black people say that in Memphis, because that would mean you have not been really reading my posts. I really resent having it made out like I am a racist myself, or prejudice, which is ridiculous, because I point out differences in speech that I have noticed, and am perfectly willing to be corrected if my experience has been limited. Even flippin’ Whoopi Goldberg said we all know what Harry Reid meant. Give me a break. If I see a black person I do not assume one thing about how they speak. If they wind up fitting into a stereotype it is not my fault. I fit into my stereotype in some ways, and in some ways I don’t who gives a shit. If there is nothing wrong with saying “stay” then why does it matter anyway. Crap, I said my own mother adds imaginary letters to words.

And, the stereotype will not die hard if I am wrong, I could care less if I am wrong. If I am wrong I am wrong. I’ll watch for it, I’ll watch to see if I hear any white people using the term and let you know. Then I can switch it to it being a Memphis stereotype rather than a black stereotype LOL.

This is why there will never be an open discussion about race in America. I hope that just ignoring it all makes racism go away. It might. Maybe ignoring it is the best way. Just all be PC, so we don’t offend anyone. I am not so easily offended, I don’t get it.

And, I never had a notion of differences between the races at all until I moved to the south. Growing up outside of DC we were all friends, my school was 40% minorities and none if it mattered at all. In FL two of my closest friends were/are black, again we never thought twice about. Non-issue. Just saying they are my black friends is ridiculous, because I just think of them as my friends.

@JLeslie- Well, I think its odd that, that’s an observation. Its not a statement I recall being differentiated by race. Nor one that sticks to me to recall.

I don’t know any one who says it, period.

Have you been surprised by how much race is a major factor in the south, particularly Memphis? Based on our past interactions, you seem truly sincere in your search for answers but also disappointed in your experiences thus far; relevant to race.

@TLRobinson Now that I believe, that you don’t know anyone who says it. I am not saying the majority of black do say it. I know my a coworker of my husband’s used it, and I know that white racist woman I once mentioned to you before (I think it was you) complained about it. And, I have heard it where I work a couple of times. I personally just think it is interchangeable with where do you live, but others make judgements about the statement.

Are you saying it is a factor in Memphis, are or you saying I implied it is more of a problem in Memphis?

Oh no, no implication. It does seem to be a factor here.

@JLeslie

What brought all THAT on, pray tell? I was just commenting in general. No reference to you at all!

@CaptainHarley I was actually agreeing with you that not wanting to take to the rich and give to the poor does not make you a racist, reassure most liberals are not thinking that, and @cruiser came after my words as though I am the racist and I am the one overgeneralizing. Just trying to defend myself and sort it out. :)

@JLeslie

Ok. Sorry! : )

I don’t think there is all that much real change going on. I think it’s a popular topic these days so we get to hear much more about it is all. Soon everyone will back to talking about gay marriage and immigration.

Change for the sake of change makes little sense. Without vision, the people perish. But failure to change when change is needed is just as futile.

@davidbetterman I agree, you don’t owe anybody anything, unless you choose to help them.
Also, who said we are heading for the 60’s regarding black and white. I personally, don’t think that is the case. If anything we are heading for a liberal vs conservative war. It has become more hateful than anything I can remember in my life time. I lived in the Berkeley in the 60’s and it was horrible, but I see worse things coming with the political parties. When our president is fighting with a talk show host, there is something wrong. When our president is calling out an individual in the crowd to come up there, there is something wrong.

I think it was too soon to have a Black president, considering the 60s were just 50 years ago, and people who were racist, are still voters. There will always be racists, I just may seem more prominent now with this novelty of a president.

I guess the fact that he won doesn’t affect your opinion on whether it was too soon?

@PacificToast But, don’t forget black people are only around 12% of the population I think, so statistically they are less likely to be president, even if everything is “equal.”

@JLeslie I just mean that a lot of people that were raised racist will feel really strongly about this and not based on his policies, but on his color. Color is too relevant yet for it to not be an issue.

@PacificToast We are all waiting for those people to die off.

What will make color and gender irrelevant is people of all kinds doing everything including being the President of the United States.