Is there shame that has a point? Is most shame useless?

Not at all. Shame is a very necessary emotion. It helps us know when we’ve done something unethical or uncompassionate, and thus makes it easier for us to all live together on this one small planet.

Nope. That is the power of influence and manipulation at work. You can make anyone believe anything usually i.e. religion.

I think shame is vital to the fabric of society. It is shame that keeps people in the bounds of normal action.

Can shame be carried too far? Yes, of course it can.

I think the recent rash of cheating spouses who shed remorseful crocodile tears on TV can do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

They are only doing this because they got caught…
Shame on them!!

Shame has no use. Guilt does. Guilt is the feeling when you’ve done something wrong. Shame is the feeling that your existence is wrong. All shame does is damage people, make them feel that they are worthless and continues unhealthy emotional cycles.

I enjoy some kinds of hurtful humor. Yes, it is in bad tasted to tell, or say offensive things, and I try not to contribute, but I do laugh at them, and I feel bad that others are offended.

Example: What were Harvey Milk’s last words? “Hey, Dan! Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?”

I never think that holding onto self incriminating shame internally is good. If one has done all within their power to right wrongs or make amends whatever someone has done should be released from within so it can’t fester like a cancer.
As far as making amends I believe in the approach of AA: “We made direct amends to such people wherever possible except to do so would injure them or others”
Freeing ourselves from the burden of undue shame is rarely solved by acting shameless. For example: feeling bad about cheating on your ex wife and expressing your remorse to her is healthy. Telling her you slept with her now deceased mother while she was sleeping downstairs is self indulgent and hurtful. Like many things, discretion is the better part of valor.

Shame/guilt serve to remind us not to do stupid things, at least as they apply to contradictions between our actions and thoughts/beliefs. As with any emotion, allowing it to control and overwhelm us is when we start to get into trouble.

As to your last paragraph of questions, that all relates to your own beliefs. If your actions run contradictory to them, get ready for some self-berrating, if not, no worries.

I’ve been a Red Sox fan since the summer of 1967 (when we still had no idea that they’d win the AL pennant that year). And I’m not ashamed to admit it.

Since 2004.

@CyanoticWasp that just made me laugh, thank you! :D

@wonderingwhy yeah, well, we can all laugh now. It took a long time to get there, though.

@CyanoticWasp I was never ashamed to be a Red Sox fan, anywhere in the country. People understood our attachment to the team.

But now—to be a Phillies fan…. especially after having been relieved of the burden of being a Red Sox fan by their first World Series Championship…. dunno…. I guess I must feel a tinge of shame….

Naw!

Go Phillies!

Shame is not useless as it helps us differentiate right from wrong. But his method of confessing it to the world is a healthy one. Problems seems much less bad? Is that how you say it? When they’re in the light for those to see. When you can see a person’s flaws, they seem much more hmmm…Real to you and easier to relate to.

@wundayatta Switching allegiance from the Red Sox to the Phillies? You should be ashamed.

I believe that, like violence, hate, anger, fear, punishment, and even evil, shame is one of the negative elements in our world that is required for our world to maintain equilibrium. Like all things metaphysical, its function is ultimately a mystery and, as you point out, there are grey areas in its application – it can go too far; it can also go not far enough. I feel very strongly repelled by all these negative elements – I wish we could live in a world of peace, love, beauty, life – but I believe that such a world isn’t possible and, in fact, none of these things positive could exist in any sense without their negative counterparts. The best we can do is seek a balance of all these elements in our own lives – thus contributing to balance in the universe.

You asked for examples. Hmm…

If a rapist comes to feel ashamed of the rape he’s committed, he’ll likely be inspired to change his ways and stop raping. This change would be very beneficial, as rape is extremely destructive to our society: our society couldn’t function effectively – thus everyone would suffer – if women were too scared to leave their homes.

On the other hand, I used to feel really ashamed about mistakes I made as a child/teen. I’d think of situations where I acted inappropriately – too sexual in some cases, drama-queenish in others, callous to a supposed-friend’s feelings in another, etc. It drove me to seek certain people out and apologise to them, thinking it was the right thing to do; turns out, it only embarrassed them. I’d have done better to leave well-enough alone because these transactions were so slight and – let’s be frank – expected of a child/teen, that I should have simply forgotten them. Eventually I did forget/forgive myself, but for years that shame made me feel so low, so disgusted with myself, causing depression, etc. It was useless shame: unwarranted and utterly impractical.

@gemiwing You draw an interesting distinction between shame and guilt – where did you get this from? Does it have to do with etymology or something? I’ve never encountered this distinction before.

To feel shame over something in your past that you have sincerely felt bad enough to change completely, is what I was refering to. I don’t mean go steal from people, confess to a priest, then run out and steal some more. Of course I would not advocate such behavior.

What I see are people who walk around filled with self-loathing because they never learned to love themselves. This is a tragic waste based on utterly pointless misery. One of the reasons people feel so badly is because they never learned that it’s okay to make a mistake or to put it in the past. In fact, many people don’t even realize how damaging it is to hold the mistakes of a person’s past against them. If you guys are okay living like that, it isn’t for me to judge. I found a way that works much, much better for me while not shirking any of my own responsibilities at all.

Red Sox? Phillies? Just wannabee teams with wannabee cities north and south of the Holy Land.
27 Titles, 40 Pennants…Fuggetaboutit…The name is too sacred to even mention.

@nicobanks I learned the distinction in behavior modification therapy, cognitive therapy and talk therapy. It’s how it’s been described to me and makes sense. Especially if one comes from a shame-based family system this distinction is critical to healing oneself and stopping the abuse from being perpetuated.

Shame is in the same box of behavioral modifiers as pain.

I think the book: Facing Shame: Families in Recovery does a balanced job of looking at shame objectively. It makes the distinction that @gemiwing refers to: “While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one’s actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person.”

It even feels different than embarrassment. When I am embarrassed about something it is usually because somebody noticed my errant behavior. In guilt I have a sense of focus on what has been done and who has been harmed by my actions or words. With shame, my focus is on who I am as a person. Of course, all three things may happen simultaneously.

For hypothetical example, I am leaving the zoo with my children. My son is persistently yanking on my shirt (for what seems to be the millionth time) and with the most whiny voice possible complains “Mom you are never fair and never let me do anything”. I turn around in anger, slap the popcorn, I bought him, out of his hand, and yell at him “fine I won’t let you have that either! Now get moving!” then I notice quite a few people are watching the scene, I notice the look of shock and hurt on my son’s face, and I feel my inner-voices telling me what a stupid and selfish asshole I am

In this example I feel embarrassed that I have been observed being a jerk to my son, I feel guilty that my behavior has hurt him, and I feel shame that says I am a no good loser.

The feeling of shame can send me into a narcissistic spiral where my cognitive dissonance kicks in. I make the situation about me rather than about how I acted and how my son is feeling. I am inclined to start saying statements like “Why did you make me do that?” or “Honey I am such a miserable person and I have no right to be your mommy.” Which trains him in the ways of shame.

The sense of embarrassment and guilt can push me towards restoration, regret, ownership of my actions, and making amends. I am inclined to start saying statements like “It was wrong to behave that way. I am sorry I got so big angry. I think I just hurt your feelings, how are you?” “What do you want me to hear?”

being intimate with a married person…or having affairs…bring SHAME! we see it on tv every day. and nobody wants it to get out of the closet.

I think guilt is a useless emotion. we have grace that forgives us. Take it!
@gemiwing I cant believe i disagree with my bluegrass sista.

If you want to feel good about enduring guilt and shame, and would even like to have increased amounts to wallow in, you might find this short quite helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb6QsTaEGF0

I personally have a hard time swallowing G & S and an even harder time keeping them down that I need to call my friend up on the phone and asking them to please support me to incorporating lots more. Sometimes with a little bit of inspiration, we can invent ways to enjoy more and more!
I have tried tricking my mind into believing that the burn of shame is burning calories faster!
( ;-) sarcasm!)
NO! I don’t support the use of Guilt and Shame!!! Harsh and Angry Judgments against oneself leads to further misfortunes from attracting punishments.
In my opinion, Religious Guilt and Shame are the most evil of all control programs. That and Fearing God.

Shame. Why would anyone ever feel shame?

Shame, Remorse, Guilt are only felt after the fact. We know if we are about to do something “BAD” before. And to carry these toxic burdens around is to me insane.

When I was in sixth grade, I had switched schools and wore pants on the first cold day. I did not know there was a “Girls cannot wear Pants” rule. So I was Shamed, and I felt great humiliation and embarrassment over this. Did I hurt someone? No. But this was LAW. Many people went way out of their way to shame me.

I consider the feeling of shame in the same vein as guilt. It’s never too late to apologize and try to make things right.

@OneMoreMinute That is exactly what I said in my post. It IS insane to carry any such burden. It might make sense if it actually accomplished something positive, but all it does is tear people apart inside. GA.

GA to you, too, @Liminal. Your quote was perfect. It complimented my point wonderfully. Shame is a pointless, damaging human emotion.

Shame is a meaningless emotion.
Unless you are a politician.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDFgzIri62I

I have noticed sometimes when I’m around other people, someone will bring up another person, often a celebrity and some recent crude activities that get in the light of numerous reporters with put downs of the celebrities certain objectionable behaviors. They Point Shame at them.
I have noticed that some people feel good about themselves when they are talking about the other person/celebrities. Like they compare themselves in a backwards way, “Look how much better I am than that dirty rotten scumbag celebrity.”

shame can be useful. guilt is useless

@trailsillustrated I cannot give one example of Useful Shame. Please, would you?

@trailsillustrated I can’t go with you on the guilt comment. Guilt stems from one’s moral compass. Without guilt, it’s a societal free-for-all.

shame is a feeling guilt is a tool

Guilt and shame reveals harsh inward anger directed by yourself against yourself, about something you have ALREADY DONE in the PAST. But the Past is over. These emotional punishments don’t tell you not to do something in the future. That’s not the same thing.
It doesn’t stop people from acting out. We already know not to do something bad, which neither guilt nor shame inspire us not to. They only show up AFTER. Then it’s too late.

I felt shame by all the teachers and students for wearing pants on a cold day. The school had a dress code forbiding girls wearing pants. All day long I was mocked, teased, and laughed at. How does Shame help here?

@phillis I agree… for some reason I forgot to mention that I find shame to be an emotion, often, unhelpful to the point of destruction. Yet, I must acknowledge that I am making a psychological distinction here and not a semantic one. Yes shame is an emotion, yet often it is used as tool by self and others to define personhood as something horrific. Whereas guilt is a feeling or state of fact that helps in the taking of personal responsibility and holding person’s accountable.

@liminal That’s perfect! That was my point. I wasn’t going by semantics, either. But I didn’t have such a fabulous quote handy :)

@OneMoreMinute

The past is NEVER “over!”

@phillis :) That quote is burned into me through lots of hard work that refused to let shame be my master.

@CaptainHarley I don’t understand what you mean by that.

I suppose Shame and Guilt and Remorse keep something done in the past alive, do you mean?

We are all children of the past, both our own, personal past, and the collective past of the entire human race. Put another way, the past is father to the present.

Has anyone ever stopped themselves from doing something they know is wrong with, “I want to steal something or do something bad or commitX/ etc. But I will not because I just know I will burn myself with hot Shame and carry around Heavy Guilt for the next ten years, so I won’t.”

@OneMoreMinute

There are people who feel as though they have to be able to live with themselves, knowing they’ve committed a cowardly act, or allowed someone else to take the blame for something they did, etc. It’s called “conscience.”

@CaptainHarley Your conscience is the part of you that says, “Stop! Don’t do that!”

If you’re conscience is saying, “I told you not to do that” it is defective.

Conscience: the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one’s conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action.

Do you always listen to your conscience? I know I’ve not always done so.

@CaptainHarley I listen to my conscience on all the big important stuff.
However, I have had some interesting and compelling arguments trying to convince it to give me the AOK on this one particular situation. The crazy stories I have told it in order to get my way. But I stand down and listen and believe things will eventually work themselves out for the better of all!

@OneMoreMinute

I hesitate to ask. : )

@CaptainHarley LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

; )))

I think shame can be useful. The problem with shame however is that it doesn’t always make sense. Sometimes people will take on shame that isn’t theirs and rightly belongs to someone else. (Ex. A child growing up in an abusive home may feel shame, but it was not their fault, or a rape victim.)
Shame in some circumstances can teach us a lesson.

Only Good people feel it.

@lloydbird That is simply absurd.

@davidbetterman No, really.

@lloydbird Oh…lol

I think the big problem with shame is that the people who should be feeling it dont seem to, & those who shouldn’t, do.

We don’t know of any cure for pedophilia and the various treatments available don’t always work. Pedophiles would do a lot more damage without the emotion of shame. So some force themselves to keep their hands off innocent kids despite the urge. Shame can be a very good thing.

I think I have a habit of using shame as a motivation to punish myself for actions I think other people will think are wrong. I don’t think those actions are wrong (or I wouldn’t do them), but I know others think those actions are wrong. I guess I figure if I punish myself enough before hand—and after—it will make me feel better about being different. I don’t know. I can’t explain it so I’m grasping at straws here.

There’s this disconnect between what I think is moral behavior and what society thinks that I don’t know how to reconcile. I know I never want to hurt anyone. But I also know that, in doing some of the things I do, I will hurt people. I can’t stand that I hurt people and yet I also know that if I don’t do the thing that hurts others, I will be absolutely miserable.

I end up hiding a lot of stuff. I don’t tell people in my family or at work that I’m bipolar, and I certainly don’t tell them what I did while I was acting out during a manic episode. I believe that people won’t understand, and, like @OneMoreMinute experienced, will continue to shame me and denigrate me and perhaps shun me. In addition, they might also shame my wife for staying with me despite this illness and the things I did.

I guess this is the shame of selfishness, and no matter how much I may try to contribute to the community, there will be no making up for the damage I have done, or may do. Inside I know the face I present to the world—a real and honest face—is also a fraud because it is hiding so much.

My shame about this is pretty much useless, I think. The only thing it does is allow me to retain a shred of self-respect. I may be secretly bad, but at least I punish myself. That, at least, is the right thing to do. I wish someone could relieve me of the need to punish myself, but they can’t, because they don’t know who I am, really. Anyway, that’s why my ambition… well, my fantasy ambition is to end up homeless—after I’ve fulfilled my responsibilities to my family.

Perhaps I will have a moment of happiness, but I will make sure that I pay for it dearly. So, don’t worry—mavens of morality. I’ll get what’s coming to me.

@wundayatta
In some strange way I identify. I feel that my truest nature can never be understood nor accepted and I have more than enough evidence to back this up. But I’ve definitely abandoned the shame because I feel like my nature is somehow incompatible with what most people consider acceptable. Inevitably I will fuck you up because in some fundamental way it’s impossible for me to really get close to someone. I have been in love but the tension eventually becomes too great. The fear of melding with another overwhelms me. My pattern seems to be Tension, Anxiety, Destruction, Release. Sometimes I delay the destruction but it always seems to be inevitable. These words by Tool seem to sum it up exactly. I no longer question it though. It is what it is

@wundayatta I wish that I knew how to write something empowering in response to this recent post of yours. But I don’t know what this “Secret Behavior” is that you are speaking of that you admit hurts other people, but not you. So it’s like trying to watch a puppet show with the curtain drawn.
Comparing my Shaming experience from the 6th grade for breaking dress code (I was a new kid and did not know) is such small bananas, and I know that it was cruel on the teachers and students to treat me that way. If the Shaming took to me, I would have never have worn pants again in my entire life, but I knew better.
Now it seems that what you speak of has a much greater level to this. You may have even gone into territory far from my sweet little fluffy world, so I would not know what to say to that.
Aw, dang, I have to leave to go somewhere, I will have to finish this later, but I wanted to say this much at least. I’m sorry…. to be continued…..

@OneMoreMinute Thanks for the thought. I wish you could write something empowering, too. Unfortunately, I’m the only one who can do that. I usually find some way to shoot down other people who try. I try not to, but it depends on my mood. I’m not telling you not to try, either. Just that I have a lot of barriers against thinking good things about myself when I believe others think I’m hateful.

It’s a bit ridiculous. I don’t know why I bother, except I wish I could tell people all that I am and still be thought of as a good person. Perhaps it comes down to this: if I keep secrets I can get some of what I want (while taking the risk of losing a lot more that I want), and if I don’t keep secrets, I’ll either get a little of what I want, or nothing.

I’ve made a choice. I guess I should stop bellyaching. Or maybe it was just about seeing the choice I’ve made.

One more bit of angst. Buyer’s remorse, I guess. I’ve made a choice, but have I made the right one, according to my criteria? I know it’s the wrong one according to most people’s criteria. It could take a while to find out the consequences, and it’s still not too late to change my mind. I guess that’s why such things can drag on interminably.

@wundayatta Well now I’m not going to say something Empowering if you will only Shoot me down! But let’s review the Bullet list here:

Barriers? You have Secrets? rediculous? stop bellyaching? Buyers remorse? choice? little vs nothing? change mind?
Dragon interminably?
what do you mean by interminably? does that have a connection to Timing?

There is right and wrong shame. Doing something wrong If you feel shame you have a conscience ,but also many adults carry shame from things that happened to them which wasn’t their fault.
Healing the Shame that Binds You John Bradshaw may be helpful to adults carrying around guilt and shame
Japan has a Culture of Shame and Honour and If you bring Shame on your Family You may feel the Honourable thing to do is end your life.