Do you think Dignitas in Switzerland should be available for the mentally ill?

I think that for those individuals with enduring mental health problems then they should be given the option. Many people spend their entire lives in & out of secure hospitals, basically stumbling from one miserable crisis to the next without ever showing any real signs of improvement.
For this limited group of people I do believe they should be allowed. However, I would insist that the decision was made during a more lucid period of their lives & documented in the same way as a Living Will.

@JeffVader well said. I agree to a point (as a person with certain mental health issues myself) but I worry that it could be abused. Any system can be, and unscrupulous doctors could use this for less than altruistic reasons. @Dibley this is a great question honey <hugs> I’ve been hearing about this for some months now, every now and again they mention it on bbc news in the morning, they’ve mentioned it in relation to cases such as those with age related issues, such as altzeimers. Now that does worry me greatly, since you can’t turn on the tv at all right now without hearing about this “explosion” in the numbers of the elderly. As if they are a problem. It frightens me honey, it really does.

@bunnygrl Absolutely, there would have to be an aweful lot of oversight!

@bunnygrl Thank you for your answer. It is frightening, but I also think it is a good thing, as people have somewhere to go to end their suffering. I think it should be available for mentally ill. The seriously mentally ill, not for people who are ‘down’ every other day, but for people who have had years and years of pain, and that it can be proven.

<hugs @Dibley and @JeffVader> thank you so much for understanding! I was actually afraid when I posted that I would sound completely paranoid.

I do agree that no one should ever be made to suffer when there is no need, but I also know from personal experience that sometimes the desire to make the pain in your head stop , well it makes death seem very welcoming, just to make it all stop, for it to leave you in peace. I felt like that for a long time and if I had been allowed to choose, well I wouldn’t be here now. Not that life isn’t sometimes very difficult even now but I cope better than I did (mostly). I worry that when people are at their most vulnerable, well certain advantages might be taken in order to save money on the NHS for instance. This really is a wonderful, and very thought provoking question honey.
hugs xx

@bunnygrl But aren’t you glad you didn’t take that final step?

@partyparty oh yes honey, definitely!! I do have a good life, I know that sometimes I don’t cope so well, but I have a home where I feel safe, and I’m married to a wonderful man who (God knows why) loves me. I love him with all my heart and soul and that was what stopped me whenever I got so close, wanted it to stop so much. The idea that I could hurt him the way it would have tore me into bits. That was what stopped me. I’m so glad that I’m still here because life can, and does get better. I do know that I’ve been very lucky though, not everyone is, and the system is so lacking here in the uk that it is so incredibly easy to fall through a gap and be ignored. I was. I went to my then GP and begged her to make the pain go away, that I couldn’t bear it and I wanted to die. She gave me a prescription for anti depressants and told me I should find myself a nice hobby to take my mind off it. She also said she thought I was wallowing in self pity. This was immediately after my grandmother died, I had nursed her through cancer and when she died a huge part of me died too. That gp never ever checked on me again, and I was housebound for almost 2 years after that. I can say with absolute honesty that I made it out of the house by my own efforts and because I had my wonderful hubby supporting me whenever it got too scary for me. Its difficult for me to look back on that time now and I try not to. You know what though, I found out that the single most effective medicine that helped so much more than all of the pills was just this, what we’re doing now. Just talk. And keep talking. Don’t ever stop talking about it until you don’t need to so much anymore. Remember the old saying “a problem shared is a problem halved” there is some truth in it. It really helps to talk. No one around you will know how much pain you’re in if you don’t tell them. It took me so long to understand that.
love and hugs xx

There will always be reasons why Dignitas won’t be suitable for the mentally ill and @bunnygrl is living proof. Well done you, you should hold your head up high for your strength of character. Hugs

@partyparty <hugs> thank you honey but I think it was my hubbys strength that carried me. xx

@partyparty Still, this tale of success does nothing for those who’s mental health issues persist their entire lives.

@JeffVader oh no honey, I’m not even close to being a success story. Every single day is a struggle, some days I don’t cope at all and things aren’t great then. It’s just one day at a time is all and its been so long now that things are unlikely to change radically. So thats my life, I cope, as well as i can. I’m not a success story though honey, there was no cure, no happily ever after for me, and in the middle is my hubby, still there, still putting up with my mood swings, still loving me, as I said, God knows why.
hugs xx

It should be available for the mentally ill. Why should we have to go through life in so much pain? I’ve been like this all my life and believe me, I have more than had enough. I’m so sick of feeling like this. The last thing I think at night is, please don’t let me wake up. My life is no life to live. Dignitas is a wonderful thing, and I believe Depression is just as painful as other serious illnesses.

I’m conflicted.

I don’t think those of us with mental illness should be able to use Dignitas. I don’t feel that we always have the ability to step outside of our ‘sick’ minds and see things for how they truly are. So, I would say no.

I’ve lost enough friends to suicide when they thought it was hopeless- I don’t want to lose any more of us to this damn illness. I’d rather see us put our energies into finding the causes rather than offing ourselves.

One thing I would consider- is that if someone had tried every drug- in every combination, every therapy (and really tried) and every herbal treatment, then yes- go for it.

Part of me feels that it’s a basic right to say ‘I’m done’, then another part of me thinks of all the pain left behind by those who kill themselves, no matter the method.

@Dibley honey please please believe me, this, how you’re feeling now, will pass. It WILL get better and you’ll be so glad when it does I promise. Its just that when you’re in that place in your mind you can’t see even the possibility that it can get better but it always does. I swear to you, I used to have those same thoughts, last thought in my head at night, and first thought in the morning, but I haven’t thought like that for a while now and god willing if it ever comes back, I’ll cope again. Please hang in there and know it will get better. You’re such a lovely person, ask anyone who has spoken to you here, they’ll agree. Life is worth the pain honey, really it is <throws mountains of hugs> xx

@gemiwing very very well said honey <hugs> People who survive the pain of depression are so much stronger than they ever believe themselves to be. I know this to be a fact. It’s just difficult at times to feel like a strong person when you just want the world to go away and leave you alone, I know that too. You are so right though, we can’t always be relied on to chose what is best for us. I don’t know the answer honey, I just don’t, all I do know is, as you said, the pain for those left behind after suicide is unbearable, why would you hurt anyone you love like that. This is a wonderful discussion, and needs asking. hugs xx

@bunnygrl I’ve been like this since I was 17, I’m 31 now, I don’t mean to be rude, si my apoplogies if I seem it, but it is not getting better. I find each day harder than the one before. Yes, I have good days, but ALWAYS in the back of my mind I am so tired with this.

@bunnygrl By sucess all I meant was that you’re in a place where the prospect of life seems better than that of death… I’m also assuming that you’re not a long-term inpatient… these are some of the people I work with day-in day-out, & it really does seem all we’re doing is preventing them from finnishing it by prolonging their suffering.

@JeffVader Great answer. I’m sure my doctors are sick of seeing me, I’m sick of seeing them! They just give me more pills, which none work, a horrible non interested woman to talk to, and that’s it. I have to make lists of all the time I’ve self harmed, all they say is “you must try not to do this!” I just think “try having my mind and then come back and tell me not to do it!”.

I was sick from 15 till (severely) 29. I know that I would have killed myself several times if people had not stopped me. I’m so glad they didn’t because I found what worked for me- finally. I needed a stricter therapist who wouldn’t let me get away with any shit, a new pdoc who allowed me to take what I needed and a breakthrough about how I was raised was not my fault and I didn’t ask for any of this- yet now it was up to me to deal with it.

I’ve been inpatient over ten times, three-quarters of that for a month or more; been on over fifteen different medications and in different combinations; been to six different therapists before I found the one that gave me the breakthrough. It’s not a short road, no matter our method of getting along it, but it does get easier eventually for most of us. I won’t say all because that would be blowing sunshine up your skirts and I won’t lie to you all.

The biggest fallacy of logic that I had was that nothing would ever change. That’s just not true unless we will it to be true.

@Dibley I’ve been dealing with depression since I was in my mid teens honey, but I didn’t have my breakdown till I was in my mid 30’s (am in my middle 40’s now). Look back over your posts honey you’ll see such a difference. You used to sound so positive, so happy, its so easy to forget the good times when the bad ones are crushing us, I know that I do. You’re right though honey, the services are overstretched i suppose, but yes I had a CPN who used to visit me, but after a while, she kept cancelling appontments by phone, sometimes after I’d been waiting for her to arrive for a few hours, sitting by the window (how pathetic is that), and eventually she didn’t turn up for an appointment without phoning, and I’ve never seen her since, that was over 5 years ago. I’ve been pretty much sink or swim since. My new GP asked me if I wanted him to refer me again but to be honest, as you said, the woman seemed less than interested in anything I had to say most of the time, so wasn’t much help. I decided that if I was to get any help it was to be by coping as best I could. Our Practice nurse told me to “fight the battles I can win” and I repeat that to myself often. I so wish I could help dear Dibley, you’re such a lovely person.

@Gemiwing GA honey <hugs> and you are so right, I was so convinced that nothing could ever get better, nothing would ever change, but it does. <hugs> xx
love and hugs xx

@gemiwing Thing is, while you certainly have been through the ringer, you would only qualify in the UK as having moderate mental health issues…. the people I would, I know these are just by my standards, allow to go down this route would be the sever & enduring. There are people on our wards who haven’t been outside, unescorted for 3, 4, 5 years. People who were first admitted as young teens & are now grown adults, who have not experienced living in the real world, & are unlikely ever to experience intimate relationships that aren’t exploitative, people for whom money is a foreign concept, who haven’t been able to attend to their ADL’s in years, people who, if not on constant observation (that’s 2 members of staff continuously observing at all times) would tie a ligature in seconds. You see the agony of what these people have been through, & go through everyday, literally carved into their flesh for some. I just think in circumstances such as these, if the person has been able to make what is deemed a rational decision during a period of lucidity, then surely it’s the better alternative.

I would feel better about this if I hadn’t heard so many stories of suicidal people who for one reason or another kept living only to find themselves claiming, some time later, happy and fulfilling lives.

I would liken this to asking a drunk if they’re ok to drive. They’re drunk, I’m not convinced they’re capable of making a rational/analytical decision nor do I believe they are able to understand fully the consequences of their decision. Severe depression can be similar. The pain or even utter apathy can be so complete the person is not necessarily able to remember or conceive of a time without it. I would hold that the such depression is all too capable of clouding a persons judgement.

However I believe we are each entitled to define the terms by which we undertake both life and death. I also believe we must consider and make clear our desires only when we are cognizant and capable of logically weighing the consequences.

Therefore for me, the heart answering if Dignitas should be available to the mentally ill becomes a question of defining the circumstances under which a mentally ill person is deemed capable of rationally making such a decision, and the proof necessary, to the extent that society is satisfied.

@JeffVader I’m not going to get into a comparison of pain or suffering. Nor do I feel comfortable showing all of my scars on this public board. A girl has to keep some things close to the vest, yes? Suffice to say that by American standards, where outpatient is the more favored approach, I qualify as having been quite ill. It still doesn’t change the fact that I don’t think most mentally ill people are capable of making that decision without being influenced by their disease/disorder. No matter how tragic we view their experience as. You can feel differently, by all means, and I respect that.

@gemiwing I wasn’t trying to outdo you, sorry if that’s the way you interpreted it….. I just wanted to point out that there are many different levels of mental health problems. & while each of us think it’s bad for us, me included, I’ve had depression & self harmed since my teens, medication, therapy etc, there is almost always someone who’s experienced things we can barely imagine. & as you & Bunnygirl were both asserting that as you are now coping, others might at some point too. I merely wanted to pose an alternate viewpoint.

@JeffVader Okay, sorry if that’s how I read it. It was a mild case, if it were. I do agree, there is always a portion of people that ‘better’ never really happens as we know it. It’s why I’m torn. There are some people who suffer so much…but then how do we know the cure isn’t just around the corner? It feels like a catch 22 to me. I wish we were making bigger headway for mental illness cures/causes/treatments. Right now there’s a lot of money going into other areas, which is good. I guess sometimes I just feel like they are forgetting about us.

@gemiwing I couldnt agree more…. I think as mental health cant really be scored & put on a league table that politicians would rather not get involved. Yet without people fighting its corner it will continue to be underfunded & under-researched. As you say, it is a catch 22. I dont want to think of someof the people on the wards as being beyond help….. but in reality, some probably are….... its very sad.

The question is what kind of mental illness should be able to qualify for one way trip to dignitas and how ill do you have to be? I drop in and out of suicidal tendancies. It never goes away and when it’s bad, it’s so bad that I would happily end it all if I only knew how to do it without fail. In times like these I forget how much I enjoy being alive when it is good and so I fear that if it was available for my kind of mental illness myself and other people would make the decision whether to live or die when times are at there worst. During certain times of the year my moods are more bad than good and there really seems like there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

@Leanne1986
Thank you for your answer.

@Leanne1986 <hugs> its interesting that you say there are certain times of the year you feel worse, because im like that, this past week has been especially tough. Hubby actually suggested recently that I keep a notebook, writing down how im feeling each day to see if there is a pattern. I’m not sure that would help though. Have to go to bed honeys, feeling pretty drained, will check back again in the morning, sweet dreams everyone
love and hugs xx

@bunnygrl I’m entering the worst kind of year for me right now. Going by past years I expect the next few months to be more bad than good. @Sophief Hang on in there, the one thing that stops me wanting to end my life is the love of my man. I’m sure you can relate to that.

@Leanne1986 Yes, very much so, I don’t know what I’d do without him.

So someone like me, who’s health but has just had enough of life’s little tricks what with bad/lack of loving happy fulfilling relationships, no one to trust me enough with their love and after 14 years of this doesn’t really want to experience another day like this on his own, can’t use the Dignitas service, how so? Just trying to figure out why I can’t use them :S surly everyone should have the choice, no?