What is your opinion on this as Death Penalty?

People. including convicted criminals, are not property or playthings.

8th Amendment to the United States Constitution: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted”

What you’re discussing is human experimentation against the wishes of the individual involved. Japan did it. Germany did it. It was wrong when they did it and it’ll be wrong if we ever do it. It is wrong no matter how you put it. There is nothing a person can ever do that would make it OK to subject them to involuntary experimentation. Absolutely nothing.

Criminals sentenced to death are still human. They don’t become animals the moment we convict and sentence them. The only rights that we, as a society, can ever legitimately revoke is that individual’s right to participate in that society. Not their humanity. We can’t take that away from them.

You have good answers. But what makes us any different then animals? Our intellegence? Our ability to over power most and be on top of the food chain? Humans are animals. But I do see what you mean Bob.

We have a system of ethics that forbids medical experiments on human beings without extremely rigid protocols. We are beginning to develop better ethical protocols for animal experimentation. What the Germans did was barbaric to an extreme and earned them the disgust of the entire world when their “experiments’ were discovered.

These are people you are talking about, and many of them were wrongly convicted because of their race or their social class. How would you protect the incarcerated innocent? How would you protect us as a race from slipping down an irreversible ethical slope toward genocide?

No. No. No. Never without , as I stated before, informed consent.

@Rebelwoman But what makes us any different then animals?

That’s a different question.

No because it would be abused by the system. It is against our civil liberties.

Essentially they will make money from testing on people. So eventually they will look for more people to test, not just murderers but those who commit lesser crimes. Then where will it end?

I sincerely believe in animal rights and I would vote for alternatives to animal testing. Having said that it does not mean that we should be that alternative.

@Rebelwoman Yes, yes, biologically speaking, we share many traits and have many commonalities with animals, but you’re dodging the issue. It’s not about intelligence. It’s not about power. It’s about the social contract. It’s about the rule of law. It’s about justice and not personal vengeance. The point isn’t that humans are more special than animals. The point is that we, as a society, have chosen to not treat each other like animals no matter how horrible the perpetrator is. In our own flawed way, we’ve chosen to not act like animals. That’s why we don’t experiment on unwilling subjects.

Bob- Thank you. So reread that and then think, We chose not to treat others as animals… Yet those who are in jail for life, what did they choose?

Yes there are some who are wrongfully accused because of race and what not and that is not right. You should put only those who commited a crime in jail.

It is a good idea in theory/fantasy, but it would never work. Let’s forget the laws that govern against it, both in government and per the Hippocratic Oath. Immediately, we run out of qualified people to administer, chart, run diagnostics,, run variables, evaluate, and confer. So, who can interpret the results?

If we did this, we run the same shortage that all medical schools have – lack of bodies.

Then there’s the ethics. If we did this, how are we any better than the criminals? Essentially, we would be WORSE than they, because our “patients” can suffer endlessly, year after year. At least Serial Killer’s victims don’t suffer long.

Plus, we can’t eat them when we’re done. Bahahahha! J/K :)

@Rebelwoman I am unclear as to what you are asking me. Are you saying that people that are in prison for life are likely to have committed inhuman acts and, thus, have chosen to not act like humans?

If that’s what you’re asking, I’d say that is completely irrelevant. The point is how we treat them. Not how they have chosen to behave. What makes us better than them is that we don’t stoop to their level. We don’t drag it out. We don’t inflict upon them the same kind of suffering they’ve presumably inflicted.

…Nazis.

It just doesn’t seem right, somehow. I suppose if a prisoner on death row would request a chance to be a subject for experiments, it might seem like a good idea. I sometimes wonder if they should be allowed to offer their organs for transplant, also.

Yarn- I agree.. But that brings up a good point. What if they are offered to go into this and offer to do this?

Bob- You’re right too.. We don’t treat them well. But we treat the animals the same way they treated there victoms. With no murcey and with no feeling. So in reality it’s no better and no worse.

Phillis- your right too… We would run out of people and then be no where. So I gues like I said later on the post, it is good we use animals because they are pleantiful. But it’s so sad

@Rebelwoman It IS sad! And if some other animal were dominant over us, we would be the ones being the lab rats. If it makes you feel any better, know that, to a small extent, this is survival of the fittest. It’s Darwin’s theory come home to roost. Yes, we have a responsibility to be good stewards, and we are!

Look at all the countless animal rights groups. Can you count them all? Look at environmentalists, mllions of acres of nature preserves worldwide, intensive, carefully monitored breeding programs by qualified veterinarians, rescue groups who spend their own money to rescue animals of all breeds, animal police who work HARD to get convictions against abusers, the people who call police on animal abuse cases, vets who work for free on abused animals, not to mention millions of people – just in the U.S., alone – who make a concerted effort to leave nature unimpeded upon, unharmed and cleaner. That’s literally millions of people, all trying to do the right thing, a million times a day. We can’t just say, “Oh, poor lab animals” and be done with it. There’s a flipside, too. The efforts of those millions of people deserve consideration.

Phillis- trust me I’ve wanted to become a Animal cop. Go save animals. I wanted to be a vet but faint at the sight of blood. I still might be a cop. Tell ya after I saw those dogs, I did quit smokeing and haven’t sense and it’s been tough but I think of those poor dogs that smoke them and I think I can’t contribute to that.

People who commit violent crimes aren’t thinking about the consequences when they commit them. They’re in the heat of the moment and it would never cross their minds that a life sentence would mean using them for experiments, so such a consequence wouldn’t wok as a deterrent, just like the death penalty doesn’t work as a deterrent, either.

As for using prisoners in experiments, I agree with @bobloblaw

@Rebelwoman If you don’t like what you will sometimes see as a veterinarian, you’re going to be steeped in that shit if you’re an animal cop, sweetie. A vet gets a clean, sanitized table where he can do assessments and take x-rays. An animal cop sees the worst possible side of humanity. If you’re psyche is delicate…...if people already disgust you…..you will never be the same after you see the ungodly misery and utter lack of concern from animal abusers. It’s no good for you, darlin’. There are other ways to fight for justice. This is not for you.

Matter of fact, I’ll shoot you a PM of 2 minute video just so you can fully grasp what I mean. I would not dare post it publicly.

Phillis- I did research on slaughter houses and literally the teacher AG teacher was sickened, the girls almost barfed and it was bad. I know it gets very bad. But there is one major thing… I know I’d be doing the right thing and I’d be helping these animals. I’ve had a few animals go to bad homes, I never wanna let another one go to one again. I am very spiritual and very Tied in with my feelings. It’s tough at times. it’s hard to walk into a junk yard or near a crime scene. Guess that’s why I’m a photographer. lol I dunno.

There are other ways to help animals. Like grantwriting for their causes. If the gore/abuse bothers you too much. It is very easy to get “burnt out” in those types of jobs.

Red- Yea. But… Ya know I could push on and keep on if I knew I was actually TAKING the animal OUT of that abusive home or that terrable life and knowing it went to a good home.

@Rebelwoman I get what you are saying. That would be very gratifying. However if the gore bothers you deeply it may not be the field for you b/c even though it is gratifying it is also deeply disturbing. It is just something to ponder. There are many many ways to help animals get out of abuse, you don’t have to be on the front lines to be a real help. But you know what is best for you and if that is what you want then more power to you.

tip, if you want to respond to someone in particular then type in the @ sign and then the person’s name (no spaces between @ and name).

Oh! And before I forget, we have to use the @ sign in order to respond to specific individuals. I’ve seen it by a ton of folks today. If it weren’t for your efforts getting erased by mods, I wouldn’t care. But I hate to see all the good stuff be deleted from the board :(

Check yer PMs, @Rebelwoman :)

@phillis oh hey it works well. coolness. Yea i’ve been deleted but hey you get no where with out a little persistance.

@RedPowerLady How could I help without being in the front lines?

@Rebelwoman Hey, you did it! Awesome!

@Rebelwoman Well you could do grantwriting like I suggested so you would be funding the cause and of course you can’t do ad campaigns or pay people without funding. You could write ad campaigns. You could be an educator on the topic. You could Run an abuse shelter or simply work in one. You could teach people how to be foster parents to abused animals. You could be an animal trainer of abused animals so they can get new homes. You could be a researcher and provide the statistics needed to create change. You could do pet rehab. All just examples. It really is abundant.

@RedPowerLady Those are all awesome ideas red. I know when I get my dream ranch I will totally help animals. I’ve always taken in random animals from wild birds, to stray cats. It’s kinda my thing. And everyone is right. I’m very spiritual and I can feel and see stuff in other people as well as animals that most can not. It’s hard.

@phillis hehe thank you I did figure it out

Given the state of our prison system, it’s too late to worry about “cruel and unusual punishments.”

@ratboy are you really going to throw that in here? They get 3 Meals a day, TV, and everything. At least from what I hear. They are able to work out, they have time outside. I’m not talking about the big places like Guantanamo bay, but prisions nonetheless; I don’t see how they are ”cruel and unusual punishments” I’d like examples if you have them.

Experimentation on human beings who are not free to choose whether they are experimental subjects is not only ethically unacceptable but it is poor science.

There responses and experiences that they report could not be generalized beyond the rather limited sample condemned prisoners represent. They would not likely provide reliable data because their motives for their responses to any complex experimental manipulation could not be discerned.

Any testing too risky or painful to be done on volunteers should not be done on any humans.

Much of the research on animals in industry is wasteful and could be better done without sacrificing the large number of animals they do.

In the early stages of medical drug testing of new medications, where non-toxicity must be established, there is a need to test on animals. I believe that good research could be done using many fewer animals. Animals should never be needlessly overused.

To test the effectiveness of drugs to treat cancer, researchers endeavour to minimize the suffering of the animals used. Such research can not be done on humans for ethical reasons.

Once a drug has been shown to be safe and effective in animals, research shifts to limited clinical trials on humans where all other treatments have failed. Unfortunately, terminal patients are the only people that can be asked to participate and it is hard to generalize from them to people with earlier stages of the same diseases. Such people must be offered the best available treatments, not unproven experimental drugs. That is why animals are the best available option.

No one likes to make animals sick or cause them to suffer. Of course researchers hope to learn enough to prevent or reduce human suffering and animal experimentation has a role to play in achieve such goals. The rules for the care and treatment of animals are very strict and the labs are regularly inspected to ensure compliance with these rules.

The cosmetic industries are among the worst offenders in the abuse of animals for product testing. Other industries that test on animals also raise many legitimate and serious concerns.

A couple good movies with this questions theme is The Lazarus Project, quite good. And then theres The Martyrs, good, but so fucked up, intense you know.

Whilst my heart (and great love of animals) makes me think that this could be a great way of bringing an end to inhumane animal testing (and save me the time that I usually spend checking the products I buy to make sure that no animals were harmed to bring it to the shelves) my head says that no, this is not the answer. I don’t believe in the inhumane treatment of any living being and I am only in favour of the death penalty if it were painless and there was absolutely no doubt that the right person had been put to death (also the crimes they had committed would have to have been really brutal resulting in, at the very least, life imprisonment).

@Leanne1986 I don’t check the products but if I get soap in my eyes I just think of the rabits that have soap burned in there eyes to make sure it dosen’t do something. I dunno. maybe there making sure the soap dosen’t eat through the cornea or something. Who knows.
It is sad but I agree with you

@Dr_Lawrence You bring up many valid points. But alot of stuff that kills me to read. Are honestly saying many animals are just pretty much thrown away? I’m aware the implant I’ll be getting it was an accident. A guy was watching the bone growth on a rabit and after a while the microscope would not come out of the rabit. The rabit was asleep the whole time.

Over 2000 people have been released from prison sincs 1989 due to being wrongly convicted:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dna-revolution-20120521,0,1446543.story