Christians: do you feel that in America people are trying to limit your expression of your religion?

It is the same as if you see someone walking into a burning building.
Since they are not asking for help. You should just let them burn?

It is not about wanting everyone to feel comfortable.
It is about your soul.
It is about, “why cant you get it in your head. You are going to burn in hell if you don’t see how important Jesus is in your life.”

I think IF we’re going to allow Jesus on a license plate, then we should allow Allah, the Star of David and so forth.

I don’t hate Christians, I just wish they’d spend more time taking care of themselves and practicing compassion rather than intolerance with the rest of us. Leave my soul alone and let me worry about it.

@ChazMaz
1) Do you mean important instead of impotent?
2) Is that the way you think (your final point), or are you being sarcastic?

@jfos – Good catch on #1. Fixed it.

And on #2. It is they way it is. Not the way I think.

I don’t pay much attention to whether or not other people are trying to negatively affect how I feel about my Lord. That would be energy wasted.

@ChazMaz
I see. To some extent, I agree with you. I also think that the Christians who are “praying for my soul so that I may have some salvation, ad infinitum…” are actually self-serving some kind of superior moral integrity. It seems to be more of a “Look God, I’m so sacrificial and humble that I’m praying for this athiest,” than any kind of service or good intention.

But as for the freedom, I don’t think Christians in America have anything to complain about. There are churches everywhere (and I would like to be informed about the tax implications.) At least from what I’ve seen, freedom of religion seems more like freedom of Christianity.

@ChazMaz I feel like it is a screaming match. One of the posters said that people got all upset when the pro-life plate was created, but they bet planned parenthood would be able to get one. So, I guess there is too choices, all or none. I really think they think they can outscream the other religions, that is how it feels to me.

@jfos And if they are genuinely praying for you…?

@Facade Does it feel like someone is trying to change how you feel about Jesus when they don’t want Jesus on a license plate?

I am all for expression of religion but if you started the whole religious thing on number plates wouldn’t that just raise the flag for certain “anti” organisations to attack you? Its as if its a safety issue.

@Facade Disrespect aside, I’d think that they are wasting their time. I don’t think I would be angry that I was being prayed for, but I certainly wouldn’t thank someone for that.

@jfos I think the Christians who say they will pray for you, genuinely think they are helping. I am not as negative or suspicious of it, even though the expression makes me uncomfortable.

It bothers me when I see bumper stickers about Jesus so I’m sure it would bother me equally as much if there were Jesus license plates. I just don’t understand why people need to share their beliefs with the entire world. You can be secure in your religious beliefs without having to rub it in everyone’s face and preach to non-believers.

@JLeslie No. and I didn’t word my initial response correctly…

If it’s about freedom of religion, then Tennessee should be coming out with a “There is no god” license plate too. I think the best solution to these fights over license plates is to drop the special plates altogether. Sadly, taxes are evil so states have to do this to raise money, and once they open the door it has become very difficult to control what messages end up on a license plate.

Why not just let everyone have their license plates? Atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics– why does it matter?

I’ve learned to just say thank you and go on when someone says they are praying for me. Since it means nothing to me, there’s no point in letting it bother me. I figure if they spend their time praying it means they aren’t out wasting other people’s time preaching to them.

I grant anyone’s right to their personal beliefs, but it stops when it’s continually presented in a way that gets up in MY face about it.

From what I’ve seen, religious dogma seems to have nothing to do with morality. My personal feelings are such that I don’t think a belief in any supernatural being is essential to living a good, ethical and functional life.

@Facade I truly feel that if I traveled somewhere secluded in the bible belt with atheistic and secular bumper stickers on my car…something would happen to it lol.

I’m with @Facade. I think that there should be an option for all major religions to have a license plate, but one you have to order special. My mom paid extra to have the Long Island Sound on her license plate, why not pay extra for it? I’m sure there are plenty of Christians who don’t care if they have “Jesus is Lord” on their license plates.

Then again, I always thought that the point of Christianity was to help people, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof.

@Blackberry This is getting pretty off topic, but the day after the 2008 election I had an Obama magnet still on my car and went out to dinner with my family. Came out after dark to find the magnet gone and the air let out of my tires. I still wonder how these good down home folks conservatives want to be feel about leaving their neighbor stranded with his family, including a young child.

@Facade Actually, push come to shove, I am ok with your suggestion, it is not my favorite choice personally, but I am ok with it.

But, when I was having this conversation with these other Christians, and of course the conversation went off on some tangets, it really felt to me like they had no clue what they were inviting. We also talked about prayer in school and when I asked what if the majority of your community was Muslim, Jewish, or Buddhist, they came back with…well you better bet that if I was living in some Arab country they would be praying in school and teaching the religion…lots of anger. When I pointed out I was only talking about the United States of America, like Dearborn, MI having a large percentage of Muslims, and Boca Raton, FL being 25% Jewish, they had nothing to say. I just feel like they don’t know the can of worms they are opening, and that they get defensive when it is unneccesary.

But, I did have more clarity that my perspective is very different than theirs. So, I asked this question to try and understand their perspective more.

@KatawaGrey What is a major religion? How big does that population need to be to make it major?

Isn’t a bumper sticker enough?

Jesus-stamped license plates are good for fast profiling. like this thread Not that it’s necessary, religious people are just as easy to identify as any other type of absolutist.

It’s not the pictures of crosses that hurt society, it’s the brainwashed children and other vulnerable minds. Religious people should express themselves more and spend less time repeating each other. . . I SAID—SPEND LESS TIME REPEATING EACH OTHER! Let me hear it! Let me hear it! Spend less time repeating each other! Less repetition is what-ah we need-ah! No more repeating! let us sing… REPE-TI-TION, REP-E-TI-TION, REP-E-TI-TION – we repeat – REP-E-TI-TION. . .

So please, express yourselves more. Not much is getting in your way, and certainly nothing that can stop you but yourselves.

Original thought is scary and it hurts, but without it you betray your friends, your children, their children, and so on. Let go of daddy-god and live as an adult. It’s your children that need a parent now, your time is up.

License plates are property of the issuing state. Putting anything religious on them would be a clear breech of the separation of church and state.

@JLeslie: Apologies, I realized I didn’t actually answer the question.

I am not a Christian but I know a lot of Christians and it seems to me that the more fundamentalist Christians do feel as if non-Christian ideals are an affront to their beliefs but I know many more who are practicing Christians but are not fundamentalist and do not feel affronted.

I don’t know how to qualify a major religion. That would be something to identify in the future. I only said major religions because it wouldn’t be feasible to have an option for every single religion to be represented.

I think the non Christians don’t like having their expression limited by Christians.

@Snarp Those bastards….I’m sorry man, that is beyond immature and so messed up. I remember the story on CNN of adults taking peoples campaign signs off of others’ lawns as well

@KatawaGrey And, that is why I rather not do any religion on a plate or other public arenas. There are only barely over 2% Jews in America, so nationally we are very small in number, and in the majority of states we barely exist, so I was just wondering. I don’t want anyone left out.

I agree many Christians are rational and do not feel under attack.

@JLeslie: That’s why I feel as if something like this was to be implemented, there would be certain religions available in certain states or even certain counties. Where my grandmother lives, a very large portion of the population is Jewish. Honestly, though, the whole license plate and religion thing is a terrible idea.

No, I do not. The biggest thing wrong with Christianity in America is christians. Many who call themselves “christian” seem to have forgotten the prime directives of Jesus:

* Love the lord your God with all your mind and soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

* So live your lives before men that they shall see your good works and praise your father who is in heaven.

* Render therefore unto Caeser the things that are Caeser’s amd unto God the things that are God’s.

* If therefore God be for us, who can be against us?

It is not a christian’s responsibility to change things by means of politics. It is a christian’s responsibility to change things by setting the example, and by always being prepared to explain the joy that is within and the reasons for it. Believe it or not, God does NOT need your help!

OMG, I agree with @CaptainHarley,(well mostly)! Mark this date in your calendars!

@Blackberry I had to keep a stock of signs in the basement to replace the ones that were stolen from my and my neighbors’ yards.

@KatawaGrey I always think about the children. The one Buddhist family in the community who has to be reminded constantly that they are not what everyone else is. I just don’t think we need to shove it in each others faces every day. Celebrations are fine, I think those are a different category. I realize you agree though, about the plates, I am not arguing, just giving more of my perspective.

Jesus license plates? Srsly?
Why should my tax dollars pay for religious frivalance?

Tax the church and let them be on the hook for that expense.

@Captain_Fantasy Does it cost us dollars? Aren’t license plates a money maker for the state?

@Snarp

We argee?? OMG! [ frantically searches his answer for mistakes! ] : D

@JLeslie – Screaming match. So true.

“It is a christian’s responsibility to change things by setting the example,”

Part of that “example” is to show you the way.

@ChazMaz I am not on board about your burning in hell theory but I’m not taking any chances and have requested I get buried in my Asbestos Zoot Suit! I want to burn in style if that indeed is the case!

@CaptainHarley – “It is not a christian’s responsibility to change things by means of politics.”

Of course not, it is the Christian population’s tendency to obey authority. That is why the religion was invented in the first place. And that is the only reason it has survived through the centuries.

Nature does not support Christianity or any similar religion, rulers do. Which may be the essential reason the question at the beginning of this page asks if it is the “people” who limit Christianity’s expression instead of questioning the government.

Christians will never challenge government collectively in any direct way. They will always target the “problem-people.” They are tools and that is their purpose.

When the government inevitably falls on its own crumbling foundation, it will call its children to support it as fodder; and they will still come, blaming the chaos on the problem-people who have already left or who are already dead. That is, if they realize that it isn’t the second coming and just disaster caused by incompetence.

Sorry for the rant, not the best place for it.

Yeah, sorry for disrupting the flow of the question. It’s just I live around religious people and often end up venting in the wrong ways.

“It’s just I live around religious people and often end up venting in the wrong ways.”

I know what you mean. I work for them.

@zophu Nature does not support Christianity or any similar religion, rulers do.
I’m not looking to fight. I just don’t understand what that means. If you feel like telling me, that’s great.

Sure, I feel some pressure. I think that’s a pretty normal reaction when people blame you for the mistakes others make, so you have to try to overlook it. But it can be felt. It isn’t easy, being surrounded by an angry group of indignant Atheists, especially when they have a right to be angry. At first I wanted to draw the comparison that that’s how Christians must have made a great many people feel down through the centuries, but then it occured to me that I am not responsible for what they did. So, I won’t be offering any apologies on their behalf because I don’t owe anybody for that.

So, if today is today, but all that suffering happened way back when, why, exactly, does it still get brought up as though the Christians of today are somehow responsible for it? Christians have bad reps these days, but we earned it. That’s what happens when you pass harsh judgements on other people. It doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that it’s okay to trample the rights and beliefs of others, and it doesn’t give anybody spiritual license to run out and convert everybody. Those who prefer their own beliefs don’t deserve contempt and scorn. And neither do we.

It seems we have a stalemate, but I don’t see that it is necessary to have angry silences and glowering looks. We’re pretty much 100% in control of that, aren’t we? If we all minded our own business and gave the respect we insist we deserve, this would resolve itself rather nicely. Maybe the time for putting this to rest is coming sooner than any of us thought it was. Or, it could be.

@phillis So which would you prefer in the end, to keep religious symbols typically out of the public arena, or to try to include everyone and have all the symbols everywhere? And about the indignant atheists, I think loud disrespectful atheists are just as bad as the Christians you refer to in history, no difference. But, sometimes I feel like a Christian perceives me as an indignant atheist just because I simply want the absence of a particular religion. I am not saying we should post everywhere in the community and schools God does not exist. I don’t see how they think the two are the same? Does that feel like pressure to you if I don’t want God mentioned in a particular assembly or public place? To the Christian it seems to me that they feel an absence of a cross is the absense and destruction of Christianity.

@phillis Yep, some good points. I think also that “Christian” covers such a wide variety of people that it’s almost worth pointing the metaphorical finger at specific denominations… for example, my parents are “Christian” (United Church of Christ) but their church is welcoming of all people including people that are GLBT. In contrast, the Westboro Baptists are also “Christian” and they’re some of the most hateful and harmful people in America today.

@phillis

I don’t think I referred to any past problems historical Christianity has caused. I see that it changes over time. Radically, even. But that fact alone, for this instance’s sake, demonstrates its foolishness. Systematic Foolishness is what it is. It is a fostering of weakness in large numbers of people to be taken advantage of by small numbers of people. Beyond that, from a more spiritual standpoint, Christianity is the grave disrespect of wisdom—a disrespect of Humanity.

I don’t really condemn the individual who believes in whatever of the Christian beliefs they may or may not have. I don’t really condemn these people when they condemn others to an “eternity of suffering” for not believing what they believe. It would be like stomping ants as they come out from under the fridge without removing the rotting food that is behind it.

I condemn the behavior that supports the foolishness. The fools will die or stop being foolish, but the foolishness can and has lived on generation after generation. The foolishness itself would have (and will eventually die) as well, for it could not survive in the natural world on its own. The only reason it has persisted through the ages and still persists in various forms today is because those who control society benefit from the mass foolishness religion creates.

My condemnation is not so much for those that control as much as it is for the foolishness that allows them to control, for there will always be a potential for a few fools try and rule the world. When so much is controlled by so little, instability is inevitable. Individuals must be as free as possible without unnecessarily impeding upon the freedom of others. This allows for constant adaptation—survival. Institutions, by their very nature, work against this. And religion is the most invasive institution.

@JLeslie I don’t feel I am qualified to dictate either one. If I were forced to answer, I would say that, If I had my way, these things wouldn’t even be issues, so the question would be moot, right? But I don’t have my way.

Regardless of who pissed you guys off, somebody, at some point, has to be willing to have a “the buck stopes here” attitude, claim responsibility, and actually give a damn so they can really hear you. Why that is so hard is mystifying to me. I don’t know that there will ever be the “right” or “best” person for that. I’ve never pretended anything, so everybody knows I am not a theologian or any kind of authority on the matter. I could offer a lack of ego on the issue and motivation to do something about the pain and anger so many people feel. I can feel and see the stuff. Nobody should have to sit on that and squash it down, year after year.

If genuiness was the only qualifier, the question would then become: Is anyone actually ready to put it to rest? Surely, it would be a waste of time to do it even a single minute before that time. The problem with giving it up is that you won’t have anything immediately to replace it with, so there will be sort of a hole, or empty feeling, where the anger once stood. that is a very uncomfortable feeling. That trips people up a lot because they don’t expect it. We all know how people hate an empty space.

@JeanPaulSartre It is rather loosely defined, isn’t it? That damn Luther. He started this :) I suppose the best answer anyone could come up with might be to match loose with loose. Folks would understand if, right off the bat, we specifically excluded certain subtypes from the Christian roster who pose no threat, nor caused any damage. You think that would work?

@zophu I agree. Christianity was never intended to replace humanity, mostly because we can never be anything BUT human. It’s a nice personal goal, but until God comes down and bestows His wisdom Himself, it’ll never work. People are totally fallible! Here’s a secret a lot of people don’t know because they refuse to marry God with science: People get high off religion. Literally. And, just like anything else that increases endorphines, logic and the ability to reason are unarguably absent. That’s a destructive combination when people think they’ve been divinely directed to wield God’s sword, themselves. Didn’t MADD teach us anything?

I can’t go with you down the path that tells me the fools will die. That’s kind of a crock. As long as there are people, there will always be fools. Misquotes of PT Barnum aside, this is here to stay. This is the thing, though…..it isn’t a Christians thing. It’s human thing. So it looks like we need to digest what that actually means before we go any further.

@phillis I think putting it to rest is to keep a separation of church and state. I have no idea what you mean by these things would not be an issue? How exactly do you acheive that? Getting rid of religious symbols, or having and allowing all religious symbols everywhere? I still don’t know your answer.

I don’t think any atheists, or Jews, or whatever you want to pick, would inject their religious views into anything if the Christians would stop it. I really see them as starting it and keeping it going. It is like a religious war to them, but there is no war, no one is trying to kill them, or take their religion away, they are paranoid. (Now I know there are Christians who are in full agreement of separation of church and state, so I am not trying to paint all Christians with one brush).

By the way all of my comments are regarding the USA.

There is a war. Against good and evil.

@phillis
You condemn humanity as it is until a magical day when a foreign force descends upon us to make us somehow worthy . . . of being awesome or something. Check yourself. Seriously. You’re broken.

If foolishness (weakness) didn’t die out eventually, we’d all be dead. It’s called adaptation, or evolution if you prefer.

Your utter foolishness will die. Whether anyone will survive beyond it and its destruction, we can’t know. Perhaps your magic-day will be the end of us all.

@ChazMaz
There is no one war against one good or one evil. Two men, each with families; one must kill the other to save his family. Which one is good? Which one is evil? The only “evil” is in the incompetence of the situation. Society has failed these two men and their families, putting them in such an unhealthy situation.

There is no one war.
There is no one good.
There is no one evil.

Stop simplifying your world just so you don’t have to worry about figuring things out on your own. we all do

“Stop simplifying your world just so you don’t have to worry about figuring things out on your own.”

You complicate it with simple reason.

I live in the REAL world every day. Just telling you how it is. Without too much bla, bla bla.

@zophu When you’ve finished prancing with the unicorns, it will probably occur to you to ask me what I meant, rather than taking license to speak for me.

@JLeslie My thoughts are more along the lines of wiping out the problem completely. The root of the problem is with us, not license plates. The word “Equality” was with us long before car tags came along. So was free speech, which includes the written word. So my question is, why aren’t either of these the crux of these conversations? The very minute we start looking at it that way, it stops us from fighting amongst ourselves and puts the responsibility back where it belongs….in the hands of people who are supposed to be working for us. Did we forget about that, too?

@phillis only so many things your religion permits you to mean by ”. . . but until God comes down and bestows His wisdom Himself, it’ll never work.”

@ChazMaz Abstraction over absolution is my creed for now. If your real world is too much to handle without resorting to the concept of black v.s. white you need a new real world. But, I see what you mean.

@zophu Satire n. A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit

The question was…
“Christians: do you feel that in America people are trying to limit your expression of your religion?”
It is all about Black vs. White.

“If your real world is too much to handle ”
I handle it just fine. :-) I think that was meant for you.

And all I can give you are my observations of being at ground zero of the christian community.

I do not believe in that “Christian” way of thinking. But this is how they tick.

@ChazMaz You took my words out of context for a jab at my personal issues? Ouch. I didn’t say you couldn’t handle the real world, exactly. . .

@phillis so, you’re being satirical? Not understanding you here.

@ChazMaz That’s the whole thing, isn’t it? It isn’t JUST Christians who feel they are being silenced, it’s everybody, no matter what religion they believe, or none at all. To me, it IS black and white. When we look at what is being squashed, it’s equality and free speech. Not to argue with you, but to make a point, I don’t see how it could be any more black and white than that. As much as everybody raises hell about censorship and prejudices, why isn’t this making anybody go, “Hmmm.” Car tags are merely a symptom of a problem that could be resolved in no time flat, comparitively speaking. Talking only about an isolated symptom is exactly why we won’t get anywhere with this issue.

@zophu Yes. It was never intended to be taken literally. It was to create a mental image for the purpose of illustrating a point.

@phillis No. I do not feel silenced. The only person I care about telling my religion and my religious beliefs to is people who ask me about them, and my family, if I were religious then my rabbi also. I feel no need to tell anyone else. I feel no need to put a 30 foot star of David by the side of the highway, but we have a few crosses that big near where I live. I feel no need to say Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, ha‑motzi lehem min ha‑aretz before the children eat lunch in public school, even if 95% of them are Jewish. But, if a child wants to say it to himself before eating, because it is his own religion, I have absolutely no problem with that. I just do not think it is a teachers place to a lead a prayer, or a coach, or anyone else in the school. Christians seem to think we want to replace Christianity with something else, we don’t.

@ChazMaz I get you :).

It should be all about tolerance and not about control. Do no harm to others and others should do no harm to you. Who cares who has what on their license plate? Should be their right to have their beliefs stated, and others should have the same right as long as its not harming anyone. For example, a sex predator shouldn’t be allowed to have the bumper sticker saying they like little boys, but then again it might be cheaper than a court trial.

Just for the record.
Due to lack of inflection. Some might think there is tension.
It is just smart people sharing their ideas and thoughts.

That is all. :)

@JLeslie Hmmm. I want to replace religion with religious tolerance and equality. One begets attitude, the other a legal right to whatever religion you want or don’t want. I can’t think of anything more ideal than that. If I overlooked something that those two don’t cover, let me know.

“Diversity” is great, until you realize that it’s like taking the center out of a waggon wheel: the remaining parts tend to fly off in all directions.

@phillis You are speaking to abstractly, for me to really understand what you are looking for. What to you would be the picture of religious tolerance and equality?

I think the US is very tolerant overall (except for a few on the fringe right now who seem very upset with Muslims, but let’s ignore them for now). Anyone can be any religion, build their house of worship and practice their faith. The word “equality” to me is best acheived by keeping religion out of government and the public sector, I think our founders were brilliant in recognizing this.

@JLeslie Our founders were brilliant in recognizing this. It’s the ones that have been in the government since that are mistaken in saying that America is a Christian nation. I don’t have a source right now, but the majority of the Senate / House of Republicans is Christian. While I believe that they are free to practice whichever religion they choose, I don’t think someone that believes the Bible, and furthermore supports it, should be in charge of making decisions for a whole country.

@jfos Well, I think you go a little farther than I do. I am ok with Christians being in government, I just have a problem with as you said, the idea that America is a Christian nation, when really we are nation who’s majority is Christian – big difference. Honestly, the Christians, and especially the Catholics I know from diverse communities totally get this, and do not inject their religion into everything. This is part of the reason I always say that I have more in common with a northern Republican than a southern Democrat. Many southern dems are socially very conservative, because of religion.

I really think it is the perspective Christians come the table with, especially if they are from teh bible belt or a community where they are simply such a majority they cannot imagine being the minority. I was talking to someone this past weekend about the topic and his comment was, “well we can’t always be changing our country just because a few minorities might not be happy.” What I believe they still don’t get is the problem is they still think in terms of majority and minority subconsciously instead of just people being treated equally.

No.

@jfos

Fortunately, the Constitution doesn’t agree with you. The qualifications are right there in black and white.

@CaptainHarley Do elaborate.

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot… they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.” -Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

@jfos

Article II, Section 1: ”No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

Those are the only qualifications for President of the United States.

@CaptainHarley Very nice.

@CaptainHarley I am confused, what does the requirement for being president have to do with the thread?

@JLeslie

@jfos stated that: “While I believe that they are free to practice whichever religion they choose, I don’t think someone that believes the Bible, and furthermore supports it, should be in charge of making decisions for a whole country.”

@CaptainHarley Ahhh. I had not put it all together. Thank you. I guess he was stating the same idea that so many people say they would never vote for an atheist just in the reverse so to speak.

@JLeslie @CaptainHarley I think we should agree that my opinion was misplaced, and move on. I would still be interested in debating that, but I don’t want to derail the discussion concerning the original question.

Anyone who votes for a candidate based on his or her religion is a fool. Anyone can CLAIM to be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever, but there’s many a slip twixt cup and lip! : )

@CaptainHarley From the movie “Ghostbusters” (a true classic…)

“Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster and the theory of Atlantis?”

“If there’s a steady paycheck in it, I’ll believe anything you say.”

ChazMaz has a good point, i’ve been around this my entire myself. It has nothing to do with the constitution, freedom of religion. Its about “my religion is right, yours is wrong, its not my word but gods word in the bible, we are going to heaven and if you don’t agree with the literal interpetation of the bible you are going to hell and because god is over any manmade document that declares seperation of church from state our way, or “gods way” overrules everyone elses opinions, constitutional rights, etc. In other words you are not against “them” but you are against “god”, they are just the relays of god’s message.

Generally speaking, I do feel that there are those trying to pressure us into silence. Christmas-banning atheists, prayer-banning schools, mass-media ridicule, a general avoidance of Christianity in modern entertainment – if not outright misrepresentation to further the story. I have mixed feelings about it: even mild persecution like this sucks, and the culture seems to be driving people and even whole denominations away from the only hope for salvation, and it’s not good for the morale. But on the other hand, we were told to expect persecution, that it’s a crucible and will ultimately strengthen the Church; if the world accepts you, you’re doing it wrong.

@jfos The Bible actually condemns praying for brownie points. Which is not to say that some don’t do it anyway, but that says more about them than anything else.

But the idea of people around you, your friends and family and even some total strangers, spending eternity in miserable agony is kind of horrible, made worse by just how very, very simple salvation is. Doing everything in our power to prevent that from happening is only natural.