Arizona's new Immigration Law: fact or fiction?

Long, LONG overdue! LEGAL immigration is fine, but to begin your life in a new country by breaking the law does not sound like a “good thing” to me.

The inaction on the part of the federal government is politics, pure and simple: cracking down on illegal aliens will piss off the Hispanic voters. The “beltway bastards” don’t have to live with the higher crime rate, the burden on social services, etc., that those of us down here in the trenches must live with.

If someone from Mexico wants to become an American citizen, let them begin by obeying America’s laws. The rest of us have to.

The governor is in a corner, facing a primary, and she had to appeal to the primitive nativism of the Right Wing beast. I’m sure she held her nose while signing that noisome piece of shit, but she knows it won’t last long, since it’s unconstitutional.

I wonder why @CaptainHarley is so ready to surrender such hard-fought freedoms. Maybe he secretly hates America, and wants it to be more like those Socialist European States where the cops are always asking for your papers.

@dpworkin

Dude, WTF? All I said was that I expect those wishing to immigrate to follow the laws of the Country in which they wish to live. That’s not “surrendering freedoms” by any stretch of the imagination!

Have you read the bill?

it’s stupidity!

I’ve read synopses of the bill. Why??

If you have to ask, you haven’t thought it through. Policemen are told to stop anyone who looks like an illegal alien, and in fact must stop them, and ask for identification. What “looks” like an illegal alien? We don’t do that here. We have too high a regard for individual freedoms. They did that in Nazi Germany and in the USSR. I am stunned that you think it’s OK for it to happen on our soil.

Something similar was trying to be passed locally, in a nearby town. It didn’t pass for the reasons @dpworkin stated.

It is an infringement on my rights as a citizen of the US, but also the rights of those who immigrated here legally, like my Bulgarian husband. We shouldn’t be forced to carry around passports and marriage licences and birth certificates and certificates of citizenship because someone might think we weren’t telling the truth. Doing so also puts us at a higher risk for identity theft, since those forms aren’t typically carted around with us. If we work on controlling our borders, we do a better job of preventing new illegal immigrants from crossing. The ones here that commit crimes will eventually be caught. (Focus should be on crime for cops, not profiling pedestrians or routine traffic stops. Waste of my taxpayer dollars.)

I doubt it will pass.

We need to get a handle on the illegal immigration problem in the US. This is NOT the way to do it. A better strategy would be for all Latin Americans to be legally required to wear a star on their clothes… oh wait.

What bullshit.

@dpworkin
As usual…you are spot on.

I’m going to refrain from my typical comments about the Constitution. But those of you who know me and have read my rants before know just how much it pains me to remain silent.

I think it was a well intended but poorly thought out law that will likely be ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court.

A similar law was enacted in Virginia a while back, which proved to divide the residents and help sink the economy. (Link) (Video about what happened in VA.) It also opened up law enforcement officers to racial profiling lawsuits.Similar laws also appear to cost more to implement than they saved in VA and will probably have the same effect in AZ, too. The VA law was eventually repealed.

I understand that illegal immigration is a problem, especially in border states like TX and AZ. I also understand that too much immigration helped do in the Roman Empire. However, I also think that when considering legislation, there needs to be some kind of cost/benefit analysis of the effects on the legal residents and the economy before deciding if “cleaning up” is something worth doing. (Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, as they say.)

I also wonder, since racial profiling based on looks is a key element of the law, how many Native Americans will be questioned for potentially being illegals. ;) Either way, if I do get to AZ someday, I’ll be sure to have my papers in order in case I’m stopped by the Immigration Gestapo.

It is worthwhile to note that all the Arizona peace officers were dead set against this bill. They felt it would destroy any trust they had with the underground economy, and that people would stop reporting important crimes.

All of these questions will be answered with the first suit that makes its way to the Supremes.

@thriftymaid Ha – the Supremes. Do you think the case will be called “Stop! in the Name of Love vs. Arizona?

The law is deeplly flawed, true, but at least Arizona is doing SOMETHING, which is more than can be said for the beltway bastids. My personal preferrence would be a 20’ high wall along the entire length of the Southern border between the US and Mexico, together with really STIFF fines ( and perhaps a nice jail sentance as well ) for anyone hiring an illegal alien.

@CaptainHarley – Well, it’s already a felony to hire them. “Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime.” And your wall is in various states of construction. However, these things all cost money, which why it’s hard to win a “war” or be “tough on illegals” when people also want “no new taxes.”

@janbb Yeah, maybe; cute. There is already one landmark case called the Loving case, so why not? :)

Ahhhh….it’s nice to see the liberal bullshit machine get cranked up on Fluther, with all the usual suspects signing on.

@CaptainHarley Agree with you 100%.

Let’s note 70% of the AZ population supports the law. If something is amiss, the blame can be laid right at the foot of Congress, and especially the current administration, which is trying it’s best right now (between Memorial Day and July 4th, by their own admission) to award AMNESTY to all the lawbreaking ( that would make it a crime, right?) illegal aliens in the US.

MORE power to AZ

@laureth

Mr. Obama would have been well-advised to spend some of those billions of dollars of taxpayer money on a wall at the border rather than on bailing out failing industries and paying off his “unionism at amy cost” supporters!

Never knew beagles were so conservative.

@janbb Gotta watch us beagles….ya never know. If all we flutherites were on a ship and the liberals were put on one side and the conservatives on the other, the liberals would capsize us…..or at least that’s my view….:)

@plethora – Ahh, but isn’t there also a conservative bullshit machine hereabouts? You can’t have the yin without the yang, and the usual suspects are rolling in from that side as well.

@plethora I think you’re barking mad, but I will defend to the death your right to bark.

@laureth

Where?? Point ‘em out to me and I’ll devastate them with my overwhelming logic and rapier-like wit! : D

Uh-oh – Showdown at the O.K. Corral!

@laureth No doubt….but we always seem to be outnumbered and so have to perform more heroically.

@plethora What side are we on, starboard or port? Wait, I need my life jacket. We can take the life boat. There are too many liberals to fit in one. Oh well, we can watch them bobbin up and down.
On this Q, I am with @plethora and @CaptainHarley 100%.

@Rangie Quel surprise!

@janbb barking mad???? LOL…:) I am deeply grateful..:)

@plethora Actually, I am a little upset that California didn’t do it first. You know we always seem to lead the country. For some unknown reason, whatever California does, the rest of the country follows. And for the rest of the flutherites, if you don’t live in a border state, you have no idea of the many issues that come with the illegals.

If English was good enough for Jesus it goddamn well oughta be good enough for them brown bastards.

[ Rolls eyes ]

@dpworkin Have a heart man….:)

@dpworkin again, I don’t understand your humor. Granted you have more classroom education than I have, but brown————doesn’t sound like something they would teach in school. Everybody, no matter what, has a right to respect.
If a border wasn’t meant to control migration of people and things, then why have one? Since we do have one for those purposes, then it seems that we should enforce the law as intended.

If 70% of the AZ population supports it…just maybe they know something we don’t know.

Here is the rationale

@everyone: If you do nothing else today, I urge you to watch this to completion, digest it and leave your comment.
Here is the rationale, please click above.

@Rangie

No, not everyone deserves respect. I don’t respect pedophiles, wife-beaters, child-beaters, murderers, corrupt politicians .. the list is long.

@CaptainHarley Okay, I was referring to race, colors, and creed. I should have spelled that out better. We were all born equal, what we do with that life is something else. But calling a class of people “those Brown B———-” even in a joke is just wrong.

Police may arrest on reasonable suspicion of illegal activity. Illegally occupying the US is an illegal act.
Racial profiling? LOL. My race is an inextricable component of my profile, it is the same for everyone else, HELLO!!!!
How can so many people just ignore such obvious facts?

“Race” is a fiction.

@CodePinko – I agree that a person’s brown skin is something a cop notices. He can’t help that. The problem comes in when judging that the brownish guy must therefore be an illegal. While many illegals are brownish, there are also many brownish people that are perfectly legitimate citizens. If I were one of them and kept getting “profiled” not as a brown person but as an illegal, I would be upset.

To compare, most pedophiles are men. (There are some women, but not nearly as many.) If we want to stop pedophilia (and who doesn’t?), we should stop and question all men about pedophilia. We could even make an ID card for non-pedophile men to carry with them at all times, so we’d know that the ones without papers are dirty pedophiles. Now, most men are not pedophiles, but if they have nothing to worry about, they shouldn’t mind a little profiling and questioning, right? We hate child abuse, right? And being a man is a very visible thing we can look for if we want to hunt down people who are more likely to be pedophiles…

You can see where I’m going here. More pedophiles might be men than women, but there are many, many men who don’t abuse children who we would also be harassing if this happened, all at taxpayer expense. Likewise, I’m sure that most illegals in AZ have brownish skin, but I’m sure that there are also more brownish-colored legal citizens in the Southwest than in other places, too.

@laureth I understand what you are saying, but a little to much apples and oranges. A pedophile is not walking around 24/7 committing an illegal act. Where an illegal alien is breaking the law 24/7. We all carry cards for all sorts of reasons. I see nothing wrong carrying a citizenship card as well. In fact I would be proud to carry one. And just how long would it take to show your card and be on your way.

@Rangie – I agree, the example is a little over the top, but it’s the same point. And while illegals are breaking the law 24/7 and ought not be here, is the cost of making sure every single alien is shipped back worth it? I would like to see more numbers before making that decision, but in the case of this AZ law, it sounds a lot like going after a toothache with a cannon. Sure, it gets rid of the toothache, but at what cost?

If the cost (not just in money, but in inconvenience, civil rights, and other intangibles) is not worth it, it might not be the right thing to do, even if it’s technically the “right” thing to do. (Does that make sense? I can provide clarity if not, but it would be off subject.)

Re: citizenship cards. If we have to carry it all the time, and are in danger of being deported without it (to where?), we ought to make them something that can’t accidentally get lost or ruined in the wash. How about a tattoo? Barcodes and numbers are nice, maybe on the arm or right hand. ;)

@laureth Again a little over the top. Are all tickets treated as a moving violation? No, there are fix it tickets, where you show proof of repair later. Most people I know carry some sort of identification in a wallet, purse, backpack. It would not be that hard. I would not consider it a civil rights violation if I was ask to show my citizenship card. Now if someone hit me on the head and demanded to see my citizenship card, I would call that a violation of my civil rights.

@laureth : Information is power, so we should strip law enforcement of the power that is the knowledge that a great majority of illegal aliens are browninsh?? They should just pretend that this means of identification isn’t available to them?? Let’s just take away their criminal database while were at it.
So our country gets overrun by illegals, no problem as long as nobody was offended.

@CodePinko @Rangie You two are SOOOOO on target!!!!!

@CodePinko – Even information that might be suspect? How many times does a legit, yet brownish, citizen get to be stopped and questioned before they’re deemed legal?

I may appear to be a bleeding heart liberal on this subject, but I am relatively centrist. In my community, there’s an organization called WICIR which look after immigrant matters. While I support their aims of reducing violence against the immigrant community, I don’t support their assertion that illegals are not committing any crime nor do I agree with many of their points.

@laureth Until the problem is dealt with.

@Rangie – If we (meaning the USA) want to have a world empire, surely we must understand that people from all over will want to flock to the capital of that empire. When people don’t have the means to live well and raise families in their homeland, they will come here for more opportunity. As such, the problem will probably never be “dealt with,” at least not until the U.S. collapses and the huddled masses prefer to go to some other empire’s capital.

I don’t think this makes it OK to search brownish citizens (every day? how often are they stopped?) until the problem that will never go away goes away. Besides, if we clear out all the illegal immigrants, who will keep our produce and plastic items at everyday low prices by working for less than minimum wage? ;)

@laureth I just knew you had another motive. Besides, if we clear out all the illegal immigrants, who will keep our produce and plastic items at everyday low prices by working for less than minimum wage? I don’t want people to be taken advantage of by working them for less than they are worth. Besides, that is illegal.
Nobody is saying people can’t come to this country. But, how about doing it legally. Hey, why don’t we all just stop paying our taxes, they can’t put all of in jail. Come on, you can’t dismiss an issue just because you think it is too big to fix.

@laureth I never said the information was infallible but I know that isn’t your concern. You don’t want ‘racial profiling’ because you believe it is prejudicial, not because it might not be a perfect tool for law enforcement.

@Rangie said “Nobody is saying people can’t come to this country. But, how about doing it legally”.
Mmmmm.. I’m rubbing the sweet common sense and logic all over me…

@CodePinko kudos again:)

It’s my job.

@Rangie – If people are hiring illegal workers in the first place, their concern is not going to be the illegality of paying them sub-minimum wage. Illegals take the wage because they can’t get legit work. Companies pay it because otherwise, they’d just hire legit workers. And the consumer gets the goods at Wal-Mart prices. Everybody “wins.” But please do not assume I’m in favor of this or that it’s my “agenda.” I don’t shop at places that are known to do this. However, I’m pointing it out as a valid economical reason to keep illegals working for us for crap wages. Often, the people who complain the loudest about illegals are the same people that like $2.99 quarts of strawberries. (I favor a guest worker program. Do it cheap and go home, and in exchange, you get to do it cheap and not be harassed. It also allows the situation to be regulated above-the-table, and we can more easily learn when companies are doing business this way.)

@CodePinko – Law enforcement could have lots of “perfect” tools if we just hand over all of our rights and privileges to them without a struggle. That’s exactly what people did after 9/11, out of fear. How long must we live in fear, though? Do we fear illegal immigrants so much that we are willing to give up a little more liberty? I don’t, do you?

I also find it interesting that the side of the political spectrum that decries big government and governmental intrusion into private lives is also first in line when it wants big government to intrude into our lives to keep those hated immigrants out.

@laureth , There is a much better solution:
Severe enforcement of the laws already on the books. Hire an illegal, lose your business license.
The demand for illegal labor would plummet. Then those criminal workers can get themselves home when they can’t find work instead of us paying to bus them there. Once home they will tell their brothers there is no work for them in the US and there is no longer a point in risking their lives crossing the border and taking jobs from citizens.

No ugly expensive wall that impedes wildlife migration. No more border patrol officers being jailed for performing their duty.

One can dream.

@CodePinko – Awesome! I would favor that. So we are agreed that the AZ law is pretty repetitive and unnecessary, then?

@laureth I don’t know how to answer you. You are talking in circles.

@laureth It’s not repetitive and unnecessary as a statement by AZ as to how they feel about the problem.
I cannot blame them.

@CodePinko Same thing here in California. here, here.

@laureth There would be no need for the AZ law if we had an effective national immigration policy. AZ is one of the states that is on the bleeding edge of “immigration idiocy”. Our immigration policy has been in a shambles for 40+ years, and is being pushed completely over the edge RIGHT NOW as we speak by Obama’s determination to LEGALIZE immigrants who are currently criminals under present law.

I can state the case no better than this HERE

@plethora kudos :):):) Gotta go. Off to the valley. bye bye.

@plethora

Exactly! : )

If I were not in favor of the AZ law already, I would be now

Can’t be all bad if the Mexicans are taking it as a personal affront.

@plethora what happened to limited government? oh, right it’s only limited when it comes to liberal issues, it’s neat the way that works out both ways for you guys, almost like it’s completely hypocritical and inconsistent…

@gorillapaws Limited to the state of AZ….for now

And hopefully in California sooner rather than later.

@plethora so you’re for Big Government when it’s at the state level?

@gorillapaws Good morning….what planet are you from?

@plethora Earth… I obey the law of non-contradiction, how about you?

@gorillapaws We no speak same language Mr Paws

@plethora you might want to avoid going to AZ then, because that’s grounds for deportation… :P

@gorillapaws Where does it say they have grounds for deportation if they don’t speak the same language? I haven’t heard anything like that.

@Rangie well it doesn’t…yet. But after they pass this, then they’re going to make English the official language, and then they’re going to force all non-English speakers to learn English. And then they’re going to charge all non-English speakers with treason for violating our national language. And then they’re going to either execute or deport those that remain. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but (if I may borrow your words) “Hey folks, you have no idea what road this can take us down.”

@gorillapaws My words never indicated what you have laid out. You do love to prattle. I find you quite funny when you don’t know how to answer something you started.
By the way, my remark about ” you have no idea what road this can take us down” was on another thread all together.
You have too many cards in your hand. You need to know when to fold-em. The rest of us will continue to talk sensibly about this AZ law.

@john65pennington I think this thread has reached it’s conclusion. Thank for the Great Question.

@CaptainHarley
I agree with you,
People can come here legally as our ancestors did. No one should ever be above our laws.
Allowing any illegals to stay promotes Anarchy.

Boy, if people from Mexico come here as legally as many of our ancestors did, perhaps I ought to be wary of their treaties and promises of food and blankets if I just go to the Rez and fight no more.

Arizona- 1, US Fed- 0.

Now this is the letter I’d like to send our president….:)

Dear Mr. President:

I’m planning to move my family and extended
family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

We’re planning to simply walk across the border
from the U.S. into Mexico , and we’ll need your help to make a few
arrangements.

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.

I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I’m on
my way over?

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.

4. I want my grand kids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.

5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my grand kids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.

7. Please plan to feed my grand kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but, I don’t plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won’t make any special effort
to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that
every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officers€¦

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put U. S. flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4Th. I do not want any complaints or
negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.

13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or
about the strain we might place on their economy.

14. I want to receive free food stamps.

15. Naturally, I’ll expect free rent subsidies.

16. I’ll need Income tax credits so although I don’t pay Mexican Taxes, I’ll receive money from the government.

17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Govt pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.

18.. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I’ll get a monthly income in retirement.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U.S. from Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won’t mind
returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

Thank you so much for your kind help. You’re the man!!!

@plethora
We are the only ones foolish enough.
I get your point. Unfortunately your right.
Bush and McCain did not seem to mind either.
Both parties seem to think allowing illegal immigration is OK.
The only one I have heard publicly take a stand against it was Lou Dobbs. Mr Independent.
He was threatened off CNN.

@plethora – Send it if you like. But I think that the President’s mail readers will delete it, the same way you would if you got mail filled with stereotypes (true and untrue), half-truths and outright lies meant to inflame.

@philosopher Agreed..both parties for many many years. Hayworth, the guy running against McCain for Sen in AZ takes a strong stand.

It’s really too bad that this law clearly violates the 4th amendment of the Constitution that protects against unreasonable search and seizure. Since the majority of the Supreme court are strict constructionists, and since the 4th amendment was put in place precisely because of unreasonable searches during the American revolution, they will find little trouble in striking down this law (if a lower appeals court doesn’t beat them to it).

@shilolo
The point is that our Ancestors came here legally. They worked very hard to assimilate into American society.
American’s do not oppose people coming here legally.
Most American’s oppose people crossing our borders illegally. It feels like an invasion. Allowing it is promoting anarchy. These people are breaking our laws. They have no right to be here.
The gangs in border states endanger the welfare of American citizens.
The politicians from both parties are more interested in being politically correct than in what is best for Americans.

Some came legally and some came illegally. Just sayin’

@janbb And the illegals need to go…just sayin’

@shilolo Right…with 73% of Americans favoring this law (recent Pew Research poll), it’s not going away.

@plethora There was a time when a majority of people were in favor of segregation, or preventing women from voting or against gay marriage. Doesn’t make it right, or moral. In this case, it is fairly clear that the law discriminates against people of color (including our own citizens), which is immoral, prejudicial and wrong.

@shilolo Oh please…it discriminates against people who are here illegally. Read the friggin law.

@plethora I have. Have you? There is no viable way for a police officer to decide whom to detain for questioning without using their skin color, and there is no precedent for requiring people to carry “papers” at all times. Are white people going to be detained? No. Are people who appear latino going to be detained whether or not they are citizens? Yes. No wonder that the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the measure. In any event, you need to read the Constitution, namely, the 4th and 14th amendments, to understand how this law is unconstitutional. In addition to those two issues, there is also that states cannot manage issues of foreign affairs.

If I were an American citizen of Mexican origin, I would be upset to be stopped and questioned by the police in my own country simply based on my appearance. Sure, let’s become a police state….

@shilolo

Ok, let’s scrap the AZ law and use the Mexican immigration law.

No special bilingual programs in the schools.

All ballots in this nation’s language.

All government business conducted in our language.

Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office

Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, No health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will be deported.

Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

If foreigners come here and buy land… options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, No political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.

If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted and, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you

The Mexicans definitely have more sense than we, dontcha think?

Ah, the straw man appears. It’s about time. I was wondering how long it would take. Thanks for playing.

Basically, what you are saying is that if your neighbor is an ass, you should feel free to behave like an ass too? We should be (and thankfully are) above that.

@shilolo “what you are saying is that if your neighbor is an ass, you should feel free to behave like an ass too?”

Not at all. I think the Mexicans have a reasonable immigration policy and ours should be more like it. It protects the rights of their citizens from encroachment by foreign nationals and protects the law of their land from twisting by foreign nationals. Exactly what ours should do.

I realize you disagree with that, but that is simply because you are a liberal. Winston Churchill had an interesting comment about liberals…

“If you are not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at forty, you have no brain.” So you are .excused if you are under forty

@plethora See, I think the US should have an overhaul of the immigration policy, with stricter enforcement (legally) of immigration, a guest worker program and a path to citizenship for many already here. Unfortunately, Republicans (many of whom were in favor of this in the past, like John McCain) are now preventing this from being discussed in order to pander to fringe, right wing nativists.

As to your final comment, I’m quite familiar with that quote from Churchill. Given your lack of ability to argue the details of the American constitution and the obvious illegality of this law, I wonder where you fall in his decision tree? Perhaps the 3rd option…lacking both.

@shilolo Congress, Republicans and Democrats, have been, and still are, screwing around with our immigration policy since the mid-sixties, to the severe detriment of our country.

Arguing the constitutionality of the law is irrelevant. Congress has ignored their responsibility for so long that the states are now taking it into their own hands, and there is so much popular support for it that a number of other states are now likely to pass their own similar laws. So whether the law is struck down or not, Congress is going to be forced to deal with the issue.

Further, how often has the US Supreme Court ruled in error on the constitutionality of a law?

This article makes a very good point that “A robust body of social-science evidence from around the world shows that people are more likely to voluntarily obey the law when they believe that authorities have the right to tell them what to do. In fact, people are more motivated to comply with the law by the belief that they’re being treated with dignity and fairness than by fear of punishment. When police generate good feelings in their everyday contacts, it turns out people also are motivated to help them fight crime. All of this leads to lower crime rates.” and that “The problem is that according to the Supreme Court, even vague criteria count, such as “furtive movements” that supposedly indicate crime, or “Latino appearance” along with scuffed working boots that supposedly indicate illegal immigrant status. This is a bad idea because when stops are based on suspicion, police are more likely to view each person they stop as a wrong-doer, which means they’re more likely to create ill will by being rude. Arizona adds to the incentive for indiscriminate stops by allowing citizens to sue police for not enforcing the law “enough.”

The suggestion for a simple solution? Random checkpoints, so that everyone gets stopped equally rather than based on their skin color.

Random police checkpoints. Damn, I love that. Does that have an East German ring to you? Face it…..police are paid to be sensitive to suspicious behavior. And I expect them to act on signs of suspicious behavior. It one does not want to be stopped, then one should be careful not to exhibit signs of suspicious behavior. Illegals, and others should take a hint from

Chris Rock

So random checks are more evil that singling out individuals based on how they look? And BTW, random checkpoints are already in use to check for drunk drivers and license violations. I don’t know that I’ve heard much complaint about that.

“based on how they look”

Depends on how they look and what they do. For instance, I’m a pretty respectable looking white guy. But If I chose to grow a scraggly beard, put a do-rag on my head, hung chains from my waist, etc, etc, etc, my chances of being questioned rise dramatically. So yeah….how I look and what I do. Maybe you didnt watch Chris’s funny video which makes a very serious point.

Alcohol use and license violations produce no outward evidence and therefore random checks are the only way to get them…unless a person is exhibiting drunk driving behavior.

I guess it comes down to which “search” is more “unreasonable,” eh? Or is anyonestill paying attention to the 4th amendment?