What would it take for you to change your religious beliefs?
Believers, what would it take for you to convert to another religion or become an atheist? Atheists, what would it take for you to become religious? I’m interested because I know what caused me to change my beliefs, but belief is such a core thing to many people, and so I imagine that this is different for others.
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117 Answers
Nothing. My religion is all about a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. Therefore, my religion would not change.
Atheists attend my congregation, as do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and a couple of Jews.
Empirical evidence for the existence of deities. But that only covers the acknowledgement of its existence. Actual worship is a completely different matter.
This question assumes I am open to the idea. I’m not because I’m not interested in going backwards. I am however open to learning more about God, deepening my spiritual life, living at a higher level of integrity, and others.
and for those of you who don’t like my comment- it wasn’t meant for you
My eventual rejection of the existence of a supernatural being & arrival at secular humanism was the result of a lot of thought, and far more research into theology—and the Bible & other books—that it’s difficult for me to imagine what it would take to change my mind again.
That being said, I never say never, so who knows.
unless your new God can turn water in to wine, cure the blind and walk on water I would not change….Shhhhiiit. we all know how to party on this side.
For God himself to show up in person and tell me I choose wrong. Or for me to simply find a religion that I feel leaves not an ounce of doubt. But truly all religion is man made. None that I can think of claim God said himself to name ourselves, Jews, or Catholic, or Protestants. Its just a title of groups who have certain beliefs and customs.
@Taciturnu what would happen if you determined there is no ‘truth and meaning’ or ‘free and responsible’?
edit: I don’t ask this combatively, just out of curiosity.
I like to think of myself as being fluid about my believing, but I am probably in a bit of denial. Maybe like most of us? Aren’t we, by definition, blind to our preconceived notions?
edit: So, it takes my being aware of my preconceived notions, exploring them, and sometimes having them blown apart.
My belief is that there is no time to spend worshiping, praying, etc, for me in my life – I’m effectively an atheist by default, but that’s not necessarily true. I’d say that it would take a deity to physically show up and tell me these things are important, and discuss with me why that is so.
Hot sex, but that would end up being a short term conversion.
I’m not sure what could make me believe in a supernatural, omnipotent being. Even if a being came to me making miracles and spouting religion, there is still no way for me to know that that being was God (as I define it). I guess it would have to be something ineffable.
@liminal There is always the possibility that what we thought today is not what we are going to think tomorrow. There is ALWAYS a truth and meaning, whether humanistic or spiritual, and the possibility that we may be enlightened one way or another is what brings us together. I’m not sure what you mean by there not being any “free and responsible.”
EDIT: (Didn’t think you did.) :)
@JeanPaulSartre Exactly. :)
@tinyfaery I hear ya – I suppose I think that if a deity could show itself to me, I would automatically know it was such, by the very nature of it being omnipotent… thinking about that makes me believe a lot less right now, though.
One way would be for the great God (whatever it may be) to address everyone, all 6.whatever billion of us, and convey a message stating that it exists. First within our heads, and then to take over the radios, televisions, computers. Just to make sure we’re all clear. Maybe even do something like in Torchwood’s “Children of Earth”—where all of the children all over the earth stood still and chanted to the world, “We are coming. We are coming….” Except with a message more relevant.
Another way would be for the one true deity to manifest itself, physically, in front of me. To perform miracles. not just turning water to wine. but taking me through time and space.
I guess neither of these is perfect proof of a God existing, but rather some form of life with technology beyond ours.
But it’s a start.
Nothing or no one, can change my beliefs!
Truth, I follow where ever it goes. And it’s in me.
@Taciturnu I guess I read the question as “what it would take to fundamentally change one’s beliefs”. I hear you saying there is no way yours can change, because you are certain that there is intrinsic truth and meaning in the universe. Does that mean that if the world were suddenly revealed to you as random and meaningless, on that basis you would change your religion?
Nothing short of divine revelation, and I’m naturally dogmatic enough that even that might not move me.
@Sarcasm He has.
@Nullo We’re going to assume the Bible is truth here.
It would be really swell of God to send down another holy messenger. After 2,000 years, it’s about time for him to do so. A little follow-up checkup, since clearly so many people are doubting the truthiness of His Power.
It’s a hard question it seems – it’s hard to think about what it would take to give up or change something so close to some of us. I see a lot of “no way!” up there.
If [insert diety here] personally shows up and can present me with some evidence they are who they say they are, I’ll believe they exist. As to why I should follow their teachings some explanation beyond “because I said so” or “you just need to have faith” would be a good start; I’m willing to work with them from there.
@liminal No. It’s simply impossible. Unitarian Universalists are (collectively) humanists first. Regardless of my spiritual views, I will always be a humanist.
Although I am a deist, I could radically change my view to be an atheist- and I would still be a Unitarian Universalist. I could convert to Christianity, and still be a Unitarian Universalist. I could be unsure of what I believe spiritually, and still I would be a Unitarian Universalist.
“Random and meaningless” sounds like a person in need of some Prozac. I don’t think there is any denying that our actions impact other people every day. Because of that, I can never say that the world were random and meaningless. I guess it’s perspective more than anything.
Is that more clear? :)
When I did change my beliefs (Christian to atheist), it took a lot of time, reading, reasoning, thinking and analysis of evidence. With the help of some very intelligent and patient people, it still took from the age of 13 when I started to find problems in my beliefs, till I was 18 when I finally realised that I could not reconcile these problems. Strangely enough I accepted evolution after I rejected Christianity, but it was still a big step in forming the relatively complete view of the world that I have today.
To change them again would take an even greater amount of evidence and reasoning.
God would have to stand before me and explain himself (herself, itself). It seems to me that the god of the majority has behaved very badly indeed.
For me to change my beliefs, I would need to see concrete proof. I know it sounds “selfish”, but if you can’t prove to me that your god (or goddess, go Wicca!) did the things you say they did, why should I choose to change my belief?
I will stick with my belief, even with a lack of concrete, scientific proof, because it matches my lifestyle so well. I love nature, and have always felt that their must be some spiritual being(s). So, even if my religion isn’t correct, I can at least say it helped me become a better, happier person :)
Different religious claims would have different standards of evidence.
The claim that there are super-powerful beings or a being who somehow created the universe in a way that supersedes human logic… I could believe something like that fairly readily, if there was evidence. The universe is a big-ass place and obviously there’s precedent (us) for something like this evolving and learning how to control its environment or even create new ones.
The claim that someone rose from the dead, or someone flew up into the sky on the back of a flying donkey… hundreds of years ago. Yeah, that’s going to be very difficult to convince me that such stories aren’t bullshit. Maybe if they found lots of Roman records that actually corroborate anything in the New Testament, or a bunch of reports around Arabia about a guy riding a winged donkey creature in the sky.
The thing about “religious beliefs” is that it’s not just one thing, it’s an entire system of claims that are all bound together, often completely arbitrarily. I honestly don’t even know how I’d begin to sift through all the claims made in the Bible or the Quran and figure out what evidence I’d need to believe each one.
@Ron_C Now this is interesting. You said, “God would have to stand before me and explain himself (herself, itself). It seems to me that the god of the majority has behaved very badly indeed.”
Whether it’s God or god, to actually expect such a being to explain themself to you? What ‘cha gonna do? Paddle them? Put them in time out? Take away their god-license? And if they don’t co-operate, I suppose you’re going to “punish” them by refusing to believe in them.
Wow.
@Taciturnu I hear you. Thanks!
@JeanPaulSartre I think it is a hard question (perhaps the frame is bigger than theism vs. atheism?) We all have those beliefs that are “no way” gonna change. We don’t even want to think of them as beliefs, actually. To us they seem facts, often hard earned. It is very very hard to conceive of those “no way” things shifting even in a thought experiment kind of way… almost feels sacrilegious, in the larger sense of the word of course ;)
@snowberry I would simply believe. That is the answer to the question. Without that act I would understand that the entity is capable of destroying me but it would not be worthy of my worship. That is what god seems to desire above all else.
@liminal Yep! I hope this transcends the typical, which is why I’m hoping to squash any debate of there is or isn’t a god. I’m watching you @snowberry and @Ron_C
@Ron_C No, I am a god and nothing will change my belief.~ ;)
@Ron_C only of this question ;)
The only thing that could change me from an atheist/agnostic would be undeniable proof.
@JeanPaulSartre whew!! that was close, I was worried that I finally stepped on godly toes.
I can only speak for my God, not anyone else’s. Regarding my God who happens to be the God of the Bible Ask Him. Draw near to Him and He WILL show himself to you. He says so, and he does not lie. But you have to want that relationship more than anything else in your life, for my God is a Jealous God. He will have no others before him. But rest assured that if you do, you’ll have the ride of your life!
Honest.
Unless of course, you want to pray to @liminal.
To all Phillis fans: She says “Hi!”
Well to be honest I don’t really think that anything would change my beliefs. I personally don’t believe in religion & to me there’s nothing that would change my mind.
@snowberry oh dear, I don’t believe one should do that!
I just talked to Phillis, and told her the conversation, at least part of it. So she’s here by proxy.
I’m tempted to say I already did, but in truth, I never could make sense of the religion I was raised in, and all my relatives seemed to accept. I didn’t so much ‘change’ as admit what I thought all along. It doesn’t make sense to me.
If there is really any such thing as a God, and an afterlife, He knows why He gave me no ‘faith’ and I have done exactly as expected. I live a ‘moral’ life without any threat of dire consequences if I don’t.
@YARNLADY I hear ya, so what would it take to get you to somehow become faithful?
@Ron_C Oh no no, if I were such a creature I would’ve smote you where you sit. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha! ...er…
My atheism has more to do with despising what organized religion can bring forth into this world and less about proof or lack of proof of some entity like god/dess. Even if such an entity did come to me personally and show me miracles, I’d still remain an atheist because, to me, it has more to do with people and what people do in masses and in patterns. And I, out of my own humanity, would never be subservient to any being that would require such of me.
@JeanPaulSartre—The answer is that if there is such an Entity, It doesn’t care whether I or anyone else acknowledges It or worships It, so why would I need to find some kind of ‘faith’?
A huge explosion while I am out along in a field. The large burning tree hit by the blast says:
“I AM INSERT GOD NAME HERE”
I would likely either think I was crazy or that I just met someone pretty important.
@ChaosCross I would so worship that tree until it burned down, and then, of course, proclaim there is no god because it burned down. ;)
@YARNLADY Sounds like you and I agree, generally.
God to come and slap me one the ass and then walk on water
I would never change. I have never believed in anything.
There was a time when I might have accepted a non-restrictive religion for social reasons [e.g. marriage] but probably not now.
no person or any event would ever change my beliefs! My faith has never been shakened! When i see the perfection of the universe, and when i consider the wonders of the human body….there has to be a higher power!
God has been far better to me than I ever deserved! Thank goodness, He has mercy on my soul. i’m just a sinner saved by Grace. i’m nothing without Him!
When i think about God sending His only Son, to die for my sins, that is so powerful. I’ve one child…my son is a wonderful son, father, and husband. The thought of sending him to die on a cross for the sins of the World, is beyond the comprehension of my small mind.
Someday, look forward to asking Him so many questions about this life. Believe me, there is so much that i do not understand, but i believe every words in the Bible. It’s by Faith that I believe every word in His book!...not that i’m naive, i just believe it with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul.
I already changed my beliefs. Well, no. I gave up my beliefs.
If I change again, it’ll be to one of those fun, whimsical religions – like Celtic paganism or Wicca. I like the theatrics, and the earth-worship. You don’t have to actually believe in the goddess to “like” her on Facebook, right?
@Seek_Kolinahr Nope, you don’t have to believe in her to like her on Facebook any more than you need to be Vulcan to seek Kolinahr ;)
@BoBo1946 ”When i see the perfection of the universe, and when i consider the wonders of the human body….there has to be a higher power!”
Fair enough.
But this is not a binary situation between Christianity and Atheism.
Would your faith in your God change if Allah manifested himself in front of you? Thor? Krishna? Xenu? Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Nothing can change my beliefs.
One time had a relationship…we were friends for many years…and when we had the romantic relationship…he wanted me to change to his religion (I won’t mention what religion…it was him not the religion rules) I have seen him convert his friends to his religion. He was so surprised he couldnt with me.
I told him that I love and adore the relationship I have with God.
I told him I’ve accepted as he is..his relationship with God and hoped he accepted mine without changing to his religion.
The relationship didn’t last. It was painful but I knew someone would come along (my future hubby) and accept me unconditionally. I know he didn’t mean to. He was taught that way and it was not meant to be lifelong relationship.
My dad, a former leader assistant in church said wise words…He said it is sad some religions divides people or relationships. Something about throwing the bath water…this or else… Marriage requires flexibility and acceptance. So I found out about him before the next step of our relationship which I was grateful.
We connected each other last year and we forgave each other (he was long forgiven). What a gift that was.
Thank you for the back story on why you can’t change @Jill_E, or at least that you’ve faced that!
Edit: Christians or atheists or anyone who believes strongly about something are their own worst enemy when they try to manipulate people into a life decision. Manipulation and controlling behavior is no way to inspire someone to believe. If you live your life in such a way that others are drawn to you because of your integrity, your generosity, your love, you will have better results, and that doesn’t matter what religion you believe in.
Thanks @snowberry, this is true (adding, or non-religion)!
Response moderated
Slight modification: What would it take for me to form a belief?
Hard to say. Really, even if some supreme being appeared in front of me and said “I am the Christian god, here is evidence” and did all sorts of miracles, I would start believing in the supernatural. However, I’m not sure I would believe in Christianity. For all I know, the devil is in charge and he punishes Christians and sends everyone else to heaven, and likes trying to trick people.
So for me I suppose to only way to form a proper belief would be to find other beliefs inconsistent with reality.
@eponymoushipster Everyone’s being really chill and respectful here, please refrain from personal attacks on this thread.
@roundsquare That’s an interesting point. Could be really tricky like those Greek and Roman gods too. Yikes.
@JeanPaulSartre @Simone_De_Beauvoir perhaps i find some of the comments on here insulting, since, basically, they mock anyone who has any beliefs in anything put their sorry selves. so chill yourself. or are you only “open-minded” to people who think the way you do?
You know, this is why I normally stay out of religious discussions. The fact that folks are being polite or at least have been up until now is why I’m still here.
@JeanPaulSartre Or a god who loves the color pink. This is, essentially, why I’m not able to come to any conclusions on religion. We are dealing with things so far out of our experience that common sense doesn’t help us out at all As a result, anything we can think of is possible (as are many things we can’t think of) and there seems to be little reason for believing that any of them is more likely than any other.
@eponymoushipster Actually no one with beliefs was mocked, at all – I thought it was a really great discussion. And really there is something you or I disagree with and then there is wishing someone would be dead through a strike – do you not see the difference?
@Simone_De_Beauvoir sure don’t. the OP asked what it would take. were there limitations put on that query, that he failed to mention?
@eponymoushipster oh, this was your answer to the q – and that makes it acceptable to wish someone to be dead from a strike? that’s really what would change your mind? I’m sorry there is nothing else for me to say. I flagged it and should have just moved on
“I don’t think there is any denying that our actions impact other people every day. Because of that, I can never say that the world were random and meaningless. I guess it’s perspective more than anything.”
@Taciturnu I can deny this. (Note: I don’t normally, but for the sake of argument…). If the universe is random, then we would (mathematically) expect that everything that can happen will, eventually happen. Let me give an example:
Assume there are n number of particles in the universe (whatever fundamental particle(s)). Assume they jump around completely at random. If this is the case, we’ll eventually see every possible arrangement of the particles and every possible sequence of arrangements of the particles, including everything form the big bang up to reality as we know it. In this case, nothing is affecting anything else, its just random motion of particles… but things look exactly as they would if there were cause and effect.
@Sarcasm see where you get your name..lol
Only if Flying Spaghetti Monster appeared!
Just answered the question truthfully! Respect everyone’s opinion about their beliefs! Just ask the same for my beliefs. there is enough room for all of us here!
@roundsquare I think you read a little further into what I was saying than what I intended. “Our actions impact other people every day.”
I believe humans have free will. (They also sometimes act of animal instincts, but for the purpose of this, I’m sticking with free will.) While there may be a finite number of outcomes for each decision, we still have the capability to make the decision. The decisions and actions we choose make an impact on many other people every day.
If I choose to get in the car and go to the store, it impacts a lot of people. Everyone who is also on the road is aware of my presence, sometimes more aware if I move into their lane or stop short. Some are frustrated with my presence, because they want to drive faster than me. Some people are happy that I was driving by, because I assist them in their car troubles. On an off day, perhaps I also made an impact on the local EMS and police department, therefore also impacting taxpayers and other sources that could benefit from the tax dollars spent. I arrive at the store, the same things transpire between me and other shoppers. Maybe my cart blocks them in the isle, maybe I bump into someone, maybe we’re all stuck in a really long line that’s taking forever because we’re checking out 2 minutes of closing time. Perhaps I’m compliment an elderly woman on her sharp jacket, or ask a man how old his children are when I notice juice boxes and toys in his cart. Perhaps I feel foolish finding out he has no children and decide not to make the same mistake again, or I can decide that it’s a mistake worth risking because he walked away with a smile and so did I. I can decide to give my husband a hug when I return home, or I can yell “hi” over to him as I’m phoning someone else.
Just in the decision of going to the store, I’ve affected all other drivers, shoppers, employees of the store (who have their jobs based on the fact that people shop there), store owner and possibly the store’s company owner and stock holders and prospective buyers, and my husband.
Knowing the weight of every decision I make leads me to believe there is no such thing as meaningless or random in this context.
New insights as a result of my critical thinking.
And this has in fact happened over the past 40 years. I don’t believe Mary was a virgin in a biological sense for example.
I’ll die as a martyr. Hoped that answered your question.
Here’s something that bugs me about this question.
The Bible (to take an example) makes the claim that the sky is a solid dome, called the raqiya, upon which sits an above-sky ocean.
This is false. Everyone in ancient Mesopotamia believed this, which is why it appears in an ancient Mesopotamian text (Genesis). However, they were simply incorrect about this particular point—in the same way that Aristotle was incorrect about his views regarding gravity and the five elements.
Since the sky clearly is not a solid firmament, there really isn’t anything that could change my views about this subject, excepting perhaps finding out that the reality I think we live in is some kind of Matrix illusion. What bugs me is that by saying this, I probably sound close-minded. But I don’t think there’s anything close-minded about acknowledging the facts of reality and discarding claims that clearly aren’t true.
@Qingu I’d say those are scientific facts and not religious beliefs. But I get your point.
@ValerieTeacup If you die as a martyr it’ll change your beliefs, or that is your belief? I don’t quite understand.
@JeanPaulSartre, I don’t actually think there’s a fundamental difference between scientific claims and religious claims. They certainly interact.
Take the claim “Yahweh exists.” Yahweh is the god of the Bible. What traits does Yahweh have? Well, the Bible says Yahweh:
• created the world in 6 days from watery chaos
• made the sky as a solid dome
• made each animal and plant one by one, in a certain order
• made humans from clay to work as slaves in his garden
• destroyed the whole world in a deluge that smooshed Earth between the above-sky ocean and the underground ocean
• in the NT, had a kid who died and came back to life, along with a bunch of zombie-saints in Jerusalem.
All of those claims interact with scientific facts. All of them, as it happens, contradict scientific facts.
So I would say that the religious belief “Yahweh exists” also entails a bunch of scientific claims. Unless of course you are not talking about the Yahweh in the Bible, but rather some sort of arbitrary, vague force unrelated to the character described in the Bible who you for no reason nevertheless choose to call “Yahweh,” as many Christians and Jews do :)
@Qingu Well, I personally agree, but suffice it to say, Christianity and Judaism have survived via adaptation (albeit slower that scientific adaptation.) Religious people can’t be convinced to stop believing through the means of tearing apart their mythologies any more than non-believers can be convinced to believe through quoting these texts. Which is part of why I asked the question in the first place. =)
@Taciturnu I guess I’m questioning why you believe in free will. What I’m saying is that we can have apparent free will without actually having free will. The situations where this would happen might seem unlikely, but I just don’t trust our common sense in talking about things like this. Just look at how bad our common sense is at dealing with something like quantum physics, and a topic like this is even more removed from our daily experiences.
This is not to sat that I don’t think we can come to conclusions, but I think we can only rely on 2 things:
1) Facts
2) Pure logic (albeit in many forms0.
We should not ignore the fact that religions evolve. Science and religion certainly interact, but this interaction evolves as well and does change over time. I’d like to use my two examples in this thread as well:
Gregor Mendel was a German priest and scientist who founded the study of genetics. It was his curiosity that eventually helped revolutionize modern medicine saving millions of people. A very Christian motive.
Georges Lemaître was a Belgian priest and physicist who wondered about Genesis and he was the first to propose the big bang as the origin of the universe. Many of the greatest secrets of our world have been revealed not by atheists, but by people of faith. Or to be more clear: by people of faith whose faith has evolved.
Science evolves. Religions evolve. Only a few forms don’t, like young-earth creationism in the US still thinking as 3000 years ago that the sky is a solid dome, called the raqiya, upon which sits an above-sky ocean. The only thing that puzzles me is, why they don’t think the Earth is flat? So did they evolve just a tiny bit?
@roundsquare Forgive me, but I’m starting to understand your question (I think). Could you please give me an example where we have apparent free will without actually having free will?
@mattbrowne, I definitely agree (they evolved a tiny bit). Another good example of fundamentalist evolution is their views on slavery. 200 years ago practically every single southern Christian fully supported slavery because after all, the Bible explicitly says you can own slaves (both old and new).
Now all of these Christians have somehow come to a different understanding regarding those particular laws (i.e. “that was just the law for the Israelites” or “Hebrew slavery was much better than American slavery” or some other rationalization for not following what it says)
That said, I have run into “theonomists” on the Internet who say they want to follow all the OT laws verbatim, even the ones about slavery and stoning kids. The ringleader of this group also told me that he doesn’t particularly know or care whether or not the earth is flat and the sky is a solid dome. (This was before he had a breakdown and became an atheist; I suppose you can only maintain that level of craziness for short busts)
I don’t have any religious beliefs.
@liminal No, I don’t mind. What would you like to know?
@Sophief When you say you don’t have any beliefs does this mean you don’t think about God or religion? Or does this mean you have thought about those things but don’t buy into any of it?
@liminal I don’t think about god or religion, never have.
@Qingu – Okay, Christian fundamentalists evolved a tiny bit. All other Christians (who are the vast majority worldwide) evolved tremendously.
@mattbrowne “We should not ignore the fact that religions evolve.”
Some religions evolve, but I think that is largely due to them having to meet the demands of a society that would be evolving itself with or without them. Muslims are quite proud of the fact that Islam doesn’t evolve, and see the changing nature of Christianity as a weakness. Many forms of Eastern religions are still practised rather strictly by their monks, and it is only the secularised population that has succumbed to evolving society. I think we are lucky in the Western world that a decent proportion of Christians are willing to adapt their beliefs to the changing times.
@FireMadeFlesh – Yes, some Muslims are quite proud of the fact that Islam doesn’t evolve, while others are proud that it does. Just look at the progress in Turkey after Mustafa Kemal Atatürk came to power in 1923 ending theocracy.
And considering the vast numbers of Muslim women in my own community wearing blue jeans and tie-dyed cotton handkerchiefs over their hair, I’d say plenty of them have evolved with the times as well.
@mattbrowne and @Seek_Kolinahr You are correct that in some circles it does and has evolved, but that was not the point of my post. The places where religion does not evolve are where the majority of people share the one religion. For example, most Christian fundamentalists life in the US, which is a proudly Christian country. Non-evolved forms of Islam are predominantly in Islamic countries, where more progressive Muslims are sometimes hunted by the more powerful factions. Eastern religions have not evolved for those devoted to the religion, but only for those influenced by secular ideas in general society. In my opinion, religions evolve slowly on their own, but the influence of secular thinking forced many religions to adapt to maintain their relevance.
I do not disagree with your posts, but I thought it necessary to point out that religions are often happy to sit in their own sphere of self-assured knowledge until challenged by radically different thought.
Ataturk, the secularist who keeps Islamic polity at bay by military force and established a tradition of military coups when religion gets too entwined in the political sphere? Probably not the best example… :)
@FireMadeFlesh – How do the Shia and Sunni share the one and only one version of their religion? Sometimes I get the impression they are more at odds with each other than Protestants and Catholics. And since there’s only one founding prophet something must have evolved afterward to explain the split. And if you look at the Golden Age of Islam the evolving was huge. The Muslims rediscovered the math and science and philosophy of the ancient Greeks. And brought this knowledge to Europe. A lot of the original translations to Latin use sources in Arabic. Greek philosophy also influenced the theology of Islam at the time.
@Qingu – It was the Turkish religious leaders who evolved submitting themselves to a secular system. Of course there was some resistance too. Some evolve, others don’t.
@mattbrowne the problem with the Muslim religion is that it is insecure. Did you ever see a timid dog, that’s the one that bites. This fear and violent reaction is fueled buy some of their religious scouring the Internet, foreign news and magazines, and sometimes inventing their own scandals just to keep the “faithful” fired up. Many cults like Scientology also react violently to imagined affronts.
Remember catholics and may protestant sects reacted the same way. The burn heretics and argue, sometime violently against science and scientists.
@Taciturnu Sure… they are a bit hard to describe though. Lemme try.
1) I control the dopomine levels in your brain. So you think about various alternatives and I control which one makes you happy. Maybe using a chip in your brain.
2) The universe is made up of particles moving according to Newtonian (or some other deterministic) laws. As a result of the initial configuration of particles and the laws of motion, the universe is in a configuration where we have human beings. They don’t make decisions, but as far as they can be said to think, they think they do. (This one is a bit strange, I’m still trying to think it through).
3) We are all in a giant computer simulation where we are doing what we are programmed to do. To the degree we have a sense of individuality, it is programmed such that we always do what the programmer wants us to do.
The exact descriptions may have some flaws, but I think they can be modified to work. As always, the devil is in the details.
An act of God and I’m not talking about parting the Red Sea, I’m talking about him showing up at my door and inviting me to his house for coffee and cake.
@Ron_C – The question is what can we do to help the Muslims feel more secure? One thing is to appreciate their religion if expressed in a peaceful way (which applies to the vast majority of Muslims). Also acknowledge their important contribution in history. Without Islam, science and technology would have reached Europe much later. It was the Arabs who rediscovered the science of the ancient Greeks first. Over centuries there were translations from Arabic to Latin.
@Silhouette… I dont know, The parting of the Red Sea, would prob. work for me. lol
@Sarcasm—have you seen the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Would your faith in your God change if Allah manifested himself in front of you? Thor? Krishna? Xenu? Flying Spaghetti Monster?
after your personal attack, thought i would hear something back from my prior answer here! guess not!!!
@BoBo1946 Hmm? Asking about non-Yahweh deities being real is a personal attack? I wasn’t saying that your beliefs are wrong. I wasn’t saying you were bad for having them. I was asking you about possible alternatives.
There really was nothing to respond to.
@Sarcasm got’cha…that is cool…have a good one! appreciated that explanation as i took it wrong!
Functionality of belief… If believing added something to my life.
Seeing that I believe that I am an 26,500+ year old immortal trapped in a time loop, I would give other peoples claims the benefit of a doubt. I don’t knock other peoples beliefs any more, because I would like to be given the same respect.
I told my pastor about my time travel and he automatically assumed it was demonic possession, yet he expects me to believe in his super natural experiences. I find that hypocritical. He even in the middle of a meeting performed two exorcisms, on me, in the middle of the congregation, on what was supposed to be, a coffee and conversation, for what turned out to be schizophrenia. My mom told my doctor and he had a talking to the pastor.
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