What makes a woman, a woman or man, a man? Biology alone?
Do genitalia alone determine sex and gender? Does how one identifies or presents themselves determine this? What about mismatched hormones and genitalia, what then?
Other than what you were told and how you were raised, how did you know you are a man or a woman?
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I think people offered good suggestions here when I asked something like this some time ago. I think sex and gender aren’t the same thing and shouln’t be conflated. What makes one a female is not what makes one a woman, in my mind but others feel differently and that’s fine by me. I think gender is a social construct and to a certain extent so are the two biological sex categories in that there has been a very deliberate historical process to legitimize the two dominant sexes and attach legal documents to them. I always respect the gender identity that each person takes on and to me, one’s gender is what they say it is including genderfluid and gender non conforming identities.
It’s the brain. What you’re born with is irrelevent.
4 simultaneous GA’s. A new record.
Penis Vagina. How you want to use them is your thing.
It’s more than just biology but there are still those four letters: XX, XY
It’s hard to compensate for genetics, especially such basic genetics. It can be done, but it’s always awkward and the attempt is probably more dangerous than focusing energies on adapting to the gender their bodies are.
We are more than our identities, but maybe it’s best for people not to believe that about themselves. I’m guessing not. Accept your body and do your best with it. That probably doesn’t mean “gender transition.” Maybe with more advanced medicine in the future.
I was told that I was a girl by the anatomy I was born with but at the age of 4 I knew someone had made a serious mistake. I knew I was a boy.
gender is an unfortunate stereotype, a straight jacket, a complancency that we are at pains to shrug off.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir is right. Gender and sex are not the same. Sex is based entirely on biology, yes. However, gender is much more complicated. In ways it is based on genetics, but factors involving nurture are also involved. Actually, we know quite little about whether gender is more about genetics than experience – hence why there are so many people who think being gay is a choice.
Clearly, having a penis does not make one the stereotypical man – Candy Darling being a prime example of that. Likewise all humans with a vagina are not all girls. We need to accept that all people are individuals and will not conform to our basic ideas about what is “male” and what is “female.”
I was just thinking how, if it is needed at all, we could call someone who feels he/she is neither a male and/or a female…, an emale.
But then again, that would make for confusing conversation probably
“Did you get that e-mail i send you yesterday?”
Boobies. OK, move on. Next question.
The acid test is oral sex. If you’re wanting a guy in your face then you’re a woman. If you want a gal you’re a man. It doesn’t really matter what you’re packing.
@evandad I want it all! What does that mean? Besides one’s sexuality is not one’s gender.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir Okay, now I’m trying to get a handle on this and I’m turned on big time. How does that help mme out? :)
see can’t even type. AC/DC “She’s got you by the Balls”
@Adirondackwannabe I think the entire topic is hard to grasp, certainly and it’s so personal, everyone’s got something to say – that’s a good thing. You’ve been listening to AC/DC all day – in some circles that means bisexual, did you know?
I knew that was equated with playing both sides of the field. I’m pretty much DC. They been my favorite from the time I started listening to rock and roll.
So….. um…. as a disclosure… the reason why I asked in the first place… My doc thinks I might have PCO. And, if this is true, it would explain a lot questions and feelings I’ve had about my gender.
I personally believe that a person’s gender is whichever gender they identify with, despite what’s down under.
I they put something in the pink and light blue baby blankets.
@Fly so does that mean if I want to identify myself as a woman, I get to go into the ladies’ locker room?
I believe it is a combination of the Genetics with Environment. Nature and Nurture that makes a woman. Genetics, left to itself just makes a female.
x chromosome + x chromosome = female
x chromosome + y chromosome = male
It’s as cut and dry as that. Anything else is just behavior stemming from the characteristics based on those genes.
@iam2smart99037 I totally disagree. It’s not so cut and dry. There are several variations in between those two extremes. Also, it’s not just behaviour. Gender is not just some habit you pick up one day. It’s something you’re born with.
You have to answer this for yourself.
@prolificus Thank you for sharing that – having an intersex condition doesn’t mean you have to identify as intersex or stop identifying with the gender that you were raised with. However, if you feel that being of the opposite gender (or some other identity all together) makes more sense for you, this might be the end of a new beginning. I have worked with this organization and you might find it helpful. Good luck!
Gender is determined by the plumbing.
If you have one or more “Y” chromosomes, then you are a male.
* A normal male has an “XY” chromosome pair.
* A male with Klinefelter’s Syndrome has “XXY.”
* A male with Supermale Syndrome has “XYY.”
If you have no “Y” chromosomes, then you are a female.
* A normal female has an “XX” chromosome pair.
* A female with Turner’s Syndrome has one “X.”
* There are females known as XY-females, but these are really biological males who had suffered an “unfortunate” injury while in the womb or during birth and were raised as females.
There may be other combinations that I am not aware of, but it is the presence or absence of a “Y” chromosome that determines whether you are male or female.
However, these syndromes are extremely rare; and those who were born with them generally have physical deformities. Therefore, if you were born a healthy male, you can safely assume that you have an XY chromosome pair; and if you were born a healthy female, then you can safely assume that you have an XX chromosome pair.
@HungryGuy These ‘syndromes’ aren’t rare – we have no stats on them, really because so many people don’t know they have intersex conditions. The medical field chose to consider these as abnormalities and to demonize these ‘cases’ as something to fix, when that’s not necessary. Many intersex people DO NOT have deformities unless you think having ambiguous genitalia is a deformity. You, too, can benefit from this website.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir maybe this makes me a judgmental asshole, but I would say that having ambiguous genitalia is most definitely a deformity. What would you consider a deformity? and why would that thing qualify, but not ambiguous genitals?
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I’m not saying that being born with deformed genitalia has to be something to “fix.” If one is happy with their body and their sexual identity, I’m happy for them. I simply answered the question based purely on the basic facts of what determines a person to be male or female.
Now, I realize that there are transsexual and intersexual people who feel that they were born the “wrong” gender, and I appreciate that perspective, but that is a psychological issue, not a genetics issue. Furthermore, I understand that transsexual and intersex people disagree with science for political reasons. But I do believe in science, and these are scientific facts, “political correctness” notwithstanding.
I learn so much on Fluther.
@gorillapaws Because you gain nothing (and do a lot of harm) by calling it something that has a negative connotation – why do all genitalia have to look one way or another? No two sets of genitals are the same and so I’d rather not say ‘oh look, you’ve totally got a deformity’ – I wouldn’t even say that to anyone who actually has something I’d ‘normally’ identify as a deformity like (why do you make me do this? I hate this) additional limbs or something.
@HungryGuy No it’s not a psychological issue, because there is nothing wrong (psychologically) with people who are trans or intersex – they just don’t fit what we (as a society) have created as categories to fit into. And I don’t think all trans or intersex people disagree with science, for political reasons but okay. And this has nothing to do with being PC and everything to do with real, breathing people who don’t feel like they should conform, period. These facts you speak of (when it comes to these very gray areas like what’s actual biological sex and how it relates to gender) have changed even within this century, even within the past decades as to what doctors (like we have to trust them on this, they’re not even trained to deal with sexuality issues let alone these issues) even do with children who are born with ambiguous genitalia. There are a lot of resources I can direct you to (mostly books) that will help you understand what kind of a history the concepts of sex and gender have had in the U.S. and the world.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I think the issue here is that you’re placing value judgments on certain terms and emotionally charging them. When I use the term deformity, I’m referring to the idea that there was a developmental anomaly that occurred in that person’s biology, not that they’re somehow defective people.
Likewise with the psychology issue. Just because something is psychogenic doesn’t imply any value judgment of good or bad, it simply means that it originates in the mind.
@gorillapaws I agree with you that I find the word deformity to have a negative connotation. If you do not feel the same way, that’s cool too. Same with psychogenic. Thank you for clarifying.
@HungryGuy would you say the presence or absence of a “Y” chromosome is the sole way of deciding whether one is male or female?
I gotta say that in most cases the Y chromosome determines the child will be male. Naturally there are problems that can muddy the waters, but the simple answer is yes, the presence of one X and one Y will make a baby with a peepee. Couple that with the an environment conducive to nurture some of the things inherent to the gene, and some things society demands and you will end up with a boy, and ultimately a man. Some of the work is done by instinct and some by teaching.
Sometimes things don’t work out so neatly, but my grasp of irregularities within genetic codes is rudimentary at best. There are always exceptions to rules. So for me yup X+Y=M (insert ~M if you like) and X+X=F (or ~F in some cases)
Most often the sex chromosomes determine both what genitalia develop and in what bath of hormones the brain marinates in during early development.
Sometimes the brain’s chemical environment during development results in a female identified brain in a body that appears to be designed to be male.
The opposite can and sometimes also occurs.
Sometimes an infant is born with ambiguous genitalia and the sex chromosomes don’t give a clear clue to what sex the child was supposed to be. In some cases the parents choose the gender and the surgeons make the cosmetic adjustments. The parents may have made the wrong choice and the brain is clearly one gender and not the other. The child may end up starting out as one gender and when their experience id clearly evident, sometimes the body must again be changed to match the brain.
Complicated isn’t it?
@Dr_Lawrence Yes it is complicated, very important to remember this!
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I never said or implied that there was anything wrong (psychologically) with people who are trans or intersex. Please stop putting words in my mouth and accusing me of saying things I didn’t say. You should know me by now from past exchanges that I’m quite open about sexual differences and preferences.
@gorillapaws – Thank you. My sentiments as well. I’m not placing value judgments on anyone either, just stating the cold hard scientific facts.
@liminal – Yes.
@majorrich – That’s a good way of putting it: “X+Y=M (insert ~M if you like) and X+X=F (or ~F in some cases)” The debate arises where you have X+X+Y=? X+Y+Y=? Y+Y=? etc…
@liminal – Dr Lawrence is correct. Deformities, chromosome errors, and brain chemistry imbalances do occur, and these “irregularities” cause people to be confused about their gender.
@HungryGuy Gender is taught. People feel confused because the two categories are so limited to them. Trans people aren’t confused, they don’t feel like they fit.
Someone once said that gender is between the ears and sex is between the legs.
I was born with XX chromosomes and unambigouously female genitalia. I was (understandably) raised as a girl by my parents. None of these things ever swayed me from my sincere and lifelong conviction that I am a man. So while I agree with most people that gender is not related to either your chromosomes or your genitalia, I am also not convinced that childhood upbringing has anything to do with it either. If it was, I wouldn’t be transgendered, I’d have been just a normal girl.
@downtide I think each person’s journey is different. I think that the more gendered one’s upbringing, the more likely a person to feel like they are transgender (this is just speculation and my own theory) which, of course, doesn’t take away from your journey or trajectory but, to me, it is more representative of the fact that when people see two options and the options they’re raised with doesn’t fit, they think they’re the other. And that’s true for some but not for many others which is why I believe (a second speculation, something I’ve been discussing lately outside fluther) there will be more genderqueer and genderfluid youth in the future rather than transgender (in the strict sense of woman to man or man to woman) or transsexual youth.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Once again, we’re debating based on each our own different definitions of the same word. So let’s use the word “mental gender” to mean what you want to be or think you should be, and “biological gender” to men what you are biologically. Everything I’ve said has referred to “biological gender,” not “mental gender.” Fair enough?
@HungryGuy It is fair enough, thanks for clarifying. I have one question: why would someone be confused (a mental emotion) about their ‘biological gender’?
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I have no idea why someone would be confused about their biological gender. I can understand someone born XXY or XYY or YY and with indeterminate genetalia for example being confused—not that there’s anything wrong with whichever mental gender they choose to identify as. But, for example, someone born XX with normal healthy male genitalia raised as male identifying as female upon adulthood? I don’t know. Some traumatic childhood event, maybe. Or maybe nothing more complex than that’s what they decided to identify as, just as somenone choses to be a truck driver or a nurse.
Why does someone become gay vs. straight? Why are some people turned on by kinky BDSM sex (and within that, why do some identify as dominant and others as submissive?), and others not? All good questions.
@HungryGuy See it’s the assumption that some traumatic event took place that’s harmful, imo. Nothing relating to my gender has traumatized me – I just realized the whole binary was bogus, to me, some years ago and I don’t ‘feel like a woman’ whatsoever. I do think that it’s more complex than biology, more complex than culture but it’s nothing set in stone and shouldn’t be.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Read my answer again. I didn’t say I assumed that. I said that’s a possibility. I also said it could be a choice like any other choice.
@HungryGuy I guess (and this is not about you) that possibility is often the first to escape people’s ignorant lips when trying to wrap their mind around trans people and I’ve heard it all too much before. Forgive me. This is a trigger topic and I do not intend to argue about this.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir Biological gender versus mental gender? Biological gender is sex. It’s what genitalia you are born with. “Mental” gender, as you call it, is much different. Some theorists believe there are five genders: hetero men, hetero women, gay men, gay women, and transsexuals. Although this theory isn’t accepted by everyone, it makes sense to me. Traditionally there are two “genders” – male and female, and sometimes the third gender which would be androgynous or gender-neutral individuals. However, since sexual preference is often associated with gender, the five-gender theory makes sense to me although it doesn’t include bisexual or asexual people. What does not seem to be widely agreed upon is what makes someone a certain gender. I believe it to be genetic, since many homosexual or transsexual people realize from a young age that they are gay or transsexual. Having a traumatic experience may cause one to avoid contact with members of a particular sex or something like that, but that’s a psychological problem, not one of sexuality.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Not to worry. So far it has stayed in the realm of polite debate, and hasn’t denigrated into argument.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir I am really grooving on your thinking behind there being more genderqueer and genderfluid youth in the future rather than transgender. a lot.
I hear Dr Lawrence, (@Dr_Lawrence please correct me if I am wrong in this) stating that brain chemistry and hormonal chemistry are also factors in determining biological gender, not just the chromosomal make up. In fact, the chromosomal factor doesn’t solely give a “clear clue to what sex the child was supposed to be”. I hear @Simone_De_Beauvoir and others (again, please offer correction) acknowledging that several factors, including social constructs, go into identifying one’s intellectual and emotional gender identity.
It makes sense to me that the more a culture accepts, understands, and gives equal weight to the biological, inter-personal, and sociological complexities involved in gender identity, that fewer and fewer people will feel confusion and conflict about self-identification, because more and more options become evident.
I actually wonder if there may even be a day when we become less concerned with understanding what it means to identify as male or female and more concerned with what it means to identify as a person. I think I might like that day.
@ParaParaYukiko To me gender and sexuality shouldn’t be conflated – a person of any gender can be of any sexuality.
@liminal – In some ways, I hope for this so less people would have to alter their bodies permanently and rather be accepted regardless.
I have tried to think of myself as genderqueer, or something else less trliant on the whole male/female binary, because it would be so much easier if I didn’t HAVE to go through all the pain and upheaval of changing my body, but it was something I couldn’t get my head round and I couldn’t be any more comfortable being genderqueer than I was trying to be female. It would be great for other people who are like that, if society could accept them as they are. But I don’t feel like I belong to that group.
As for what causes it, there are theories that it’s related to exposure to certain combinations of hormones in the womb.
@downtide I think I hear you saying this: Breaking free from binary thinking when it comes to gender opens up perspectives yet, it doesn’t change that some will identify as male or female. Some will, for very legitimate reasons, change their bodies as part of accepting that identity. I find this very important to remember!
I wonder if the failure to remember this could result in conflict amongst those wrestling with issues of identity? Similar to conflicts that happen over issues of attraction, for example, a person with bi-sexual attractions facing ridicule “for not committing” or “pretending”. How do we limit such potential conflict?
@downtide No, I definitely think that whatever works in this lifetime for you is what you should do and we should all support it. I’m just hoping for a future, a culture where the need won’t be that great to change bodies, where the divide between the major genders will lessen, where all could do whatever, wear whatever so that you don’t feel as if you have to completely switch over because it won’t matter, so much. I know people think of this future of mine as some sort of androgynous blob where everyone is the same, but it’s quite the opposite – it’s the future where individuality is more valued, where each person is uniquely themselves without limits as to how they should express themselves.
@liminal Breaking free from binary thinking when it comes to gender opens up perspectives yet, it doesn’t change that some will identify as male or female. Some will, for very legitimate reasons, change their bodies as part of accepting that identity.
Yes, that’s exactly what I was trying to say. And also to add that I am one of the people for whom binary gender matters, and hence my need for physical transition.
What we know is that it’s not just the Y chromosome or a second X chromosome. Hormones shape the brains too.
@mattbrowne – Right. And the hormones that our bodies manufacture are determined largely by our genetic make up.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – And as for ignorance, ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge. Until science understands genetics, brain chemistry, and psychology much better than we do now, we are ALL ignorant (you and I, both) about what causes some people to identify with a mental gender contrary to their biological gender (sex) and/or to develop non-traditional sexual orientations.
@HungryGuy – Yes, but especially during pregnancy there isn’t a simple X or Y correlation with hormone exposure of the unborn baby. Some researchers think that in the more extreme forms this might be the ultimate cause of transsexuality leading to male brains trapped in a female body and vice versa.
@mattbrowne – Right. But that’s the crucial word right there: think. We don’t yet know.
@HungryGuy – Exactly. Some speculation, couple of interesting hypotheses, but no widely accepted scientific theories yet. But we need hypotheses and discussions about them, otherwise there’s little chance of finding theories.
@mattbrowne – Right. But then we get afficionados of Political Correctness taking offense at hypotheses that don’t further their personal alternative lifestyle choices, even if nobody actually criticized said personal alternative lifestyle choices..
@HungryGuy That’s a pretty condescending and close-minded view to take of my and that of many others life. No one has the right to criticize my gender identity and I don’t criticize yours when I say it was socialized upon you – it is simply true.
I think that for the sake of the modern interpretation you are a man or a woman when you’ve designated yourself to be either/or. Scientifically the case may be a certain designation but who can deny anyone the right to call themselves a man or a woman regardless of their appearance.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I didn’t say anything consescending, and I didn’t even mention you. And I never criticized yours, or anyone else’s, gender identity. To the contrary, I believe a person has a right to identify as whatever they want to be, regardless whether their identity is determined by biology, or socialization, or simply a perconal choice (I thought I made that perfectly clear all along). I’d think you’d consider me an ally—oh well. So if you think that’s being “closed minded,” that suggests to me that you are the one who is closed-minded and brainwashed by political correctness. And that’s my biggest complaint with such people, if you state an opinion that’s contrary to theirs, you’re “offensive” and “ignorant!”
@SeventhSense – I totally agree! A person has the right to designate him/her self whatever they want to be (as long as they’re honest with prospective partners and reveal their true gender before the fun begins).
@HungryGuy So much of what you say is cliche – if someone says something contrary to your opinion, then they’re all about PC – well I’m just letting you know my life is not about being PC and if your opinion is offensive, I state so. If you disagree, by all means.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Okay, the mere fact that we each exist on this planet is offensive to the other. Can we still be friends? :-p
@HungryGuy as long as they’re honest with prospective partners and reveal their true gender before the fun begins
Excuse me, but the “true” gender of a transgendered person is the gender by which they self-designate.
@downtide – Okay then: ...their biological gender…
@Simone_De_Beauvoir & @SeventhSense – Cool! Did you two meet here on Fluther? I’m happy for you both!
And, yes, spankings should be firm—just be sure to have a mutually-agreed safeword in your pockets :-p
@HungryGuy LOL..yeah, we’re not together…we have a love hate relationship as jellies
Relationships are highly overrated. A good woman goes home in the morning
@SeventhSense And you, I suppose, stay in the hotel for the free breakfast?
I can make my own breakfast. I’m an excellent cook
Don’t be a sexist. :P
@SeventhSense :), it was more of a joke about hotel rooms but never mind lol
Yes I know. A woman’s job is to attempt to break a man and a man’s job is to never let her.
@SeventhSense my god! this is all so fascinating…if only I gave a hoot and cared to learn ‘the rules’..
@SeventhSense And you’re circular…hope not everywhere, for your sake.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir
Well it’s going to hurt me more than you…J.P.agrees it’s for the best…he’s nodding his head
@liminal Because that’s how you determine gender. I’m not being tautological here.
@Nullo Do you see a difference between biological gender (Sex) and psychological gender? Do you have room for seeing that both aspects work together in the formation of gender identity?
Actually, there is a particular gene SRY on the Y chromosome that determines primary and secondary sex characteristics by simply being there. It’s absence in most mammals and many other animals makes that animal a genetic female.
Genetic gender
Gender identity
Anotomical gender
Very different things. This forum won’t give you complete understanding but any behavioral science class should give you more information. Hormones and the presence or absence of them at particular times during an organism’s development (critical periods) determine genetic gender and anatomical gender. In humans the SRY gene starts a cascade of events that ultimately leads to the male form/mind/identity. Rarely things go awry, and thats when it gets interesting and what brings up discussions about identity. Enjoy!
Well, to answer your question, if you are born with a penis you are a male, a vagina you are a female. Looking past all the mumbo-jumbo, that’s what it is. If a guy or gal pumps his or her body full of estrogen or testosterone and gets a bunch of plastic surgery, it does not matter. How you are born is who you are.
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