Do you think it is appropriate to allow construction of a Mosque at what was the World Trade Center site?

I’m not anti-Muslim, but a mosque at the 9/11 site would be singularly inappropriate. It would make about as much sense as erecting an equestrian statue of Heinrich Himmler at Auschwitz. From a purely practical standpoint, a mosque at that location would be a continuous target of vandalism or even a full-scale terror attack. NF

Is this a plan in the works, or a hypothetical situation?

I think it’s vastly insensitive and inappropriate and the logic behind doing it is completely twisted and half-assed.

No, for the simple reasoning that it’s not all inclusive. It’s only my opinion, but I feel like if as a nation, we are set on using the destruction of the towers as a unifying event (right or wrong), any use of the grounds should be as open and accessible as possible or as a more universal symbol. You could argue that a mosque would be a symbol of our willingness to embrace and not condemn, but it’s still a symbol that attaches an ideology that is exclusive of too many.

It would be highly inappropriate. Whatever structure is built there, it should hold some significance for the families of victims, and for people to remember the devastating effects of corrupting young minds. It should not be a place that will just rub salt in the wounds.

@poofandmook
I heard yesterday that the Community Board approved it.
I wanted to scream.
People feel paranoid down there. This feeling is from the gut and who can blame anyone for feeling this way.
I no longer work in Manhattan every day.
I use to work a few blocks from the Trade Center. The narrow streets and crowds can be overwhelming under normal circumstances.
Common sense says this is not an appropriate place for Mosque.

@FireMadeFlesh
I greatly appreciate you common sense.

@wonderingwhy
Good point.

@stranger_in_a_strange_land
I agree and thank you for your response.
Thank you everyone for your common sense.
I love Manhattan but I am paranoid when I am there; despite that I grew visiting all the time.
We should be working on making NYC safe not placating anyone.
The feelings of the families who lost people on 9/11 should come first.
I have heard the stories first hand from people who survived. It is Heart breaking.

There is no plan to build a mosque at the World Trade Center site.

There is hysteria among the usual bedwetters about a mosque two blocks away in an unrelated development.

@jaytkay
The plan was announced on the news Friday . The Community Board approved it.
The fight is on.
Are you saying the media is wrong?

@philosopher: Is there a link to an article or something?

I think building a mosque on that site is disgusting, disrespectful and insensitive to Americans, and America in general. I have no problems with muslims, but if you’re in America.. you should live and obey our rules. Americans (I’m sorry to say) are losing their patriotism for America. This is America, not the middle east. We should not build a mosque on that site. What it’s proving to the bad muslims is.. that we well tolerate their behaviour (I certainly will not!). If they build a mosque on that site, I demand we go to Afghanistan and build a church.

@philosopher Look it up. There is no plan to build a mosque at the World Trade Center site.

I could post a dozen links to the actual story, but frankly I get tired of peoples’ uncritical acceptance of false stories from chain emails and AM radio, and doing your own homework would be good exercise.

A little fact-checking is advised when you hear an too-outrageous-to-be-true-story.

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/06/1042597/mosque-going-up-in-nyc-building.html
I read this article. This is much too close.
I heard this on CBS news last evening. They said, at the site.
The point is that they are not considering the feelings of the Vitim’s families.
I worked down there for years.
In Manhattan everyone walks every place. Two blocks is nothing.
Too understand the atmosphere you would have to work or live there for a while.

Sure if you are one of those people who like to put all muslims together into the same drawer with extremists and terrorists, I can see why that would disturb you.
But the simple facts are that, one, the mosque is not being built at the site, but two blocks away, and second, it is built for non radical muslims, as a counter weight to the extremist vocal minority, so I do not see a problem with it.

The building that is being turned into a mosque is two blocks from the WTC site. It is in the old Burlington Coat Factory building, which is already being used as a mosque.

I still think it’s garbage.

“We all know these immoral evil people live among us. We know they will never stop. It is up to their moral leaders to stop this. They should know we will never accept them as long as they support violence”

It seems that moral leaders want to stop this and believe the building of a new mosque is speaking out against violence and harmful stereotyping. Associated Press Report

Isn’t it possible that this effort is sending the message you say desperately needs to be heard?

No, I don’t. I don’t think a church of any kind would be appropriate. They should build a park.

@poofandmook you said: “The building that is being turned into a mosque is two blocks from the WTC site. It is in the old Burlington Coat Factory building, which is already being used as a mosque.” Earlier you said that you think the logic behind this is twisted. What, do you think, is the logic at play? Do you think they should be closing down this mosque rather than building a new one?

@liminal: I made that statement before I learned it was already a mosque or that it was 2 blocks away.

i actually think that it would be the perfect Panacea, don’t you? a monument to forgiveness and tollerance.

@mammal: Who is forgiving them? A bunch of bureaucrats? How is that right? What right do they have to speak on behalf of all those families?

I’m with @Silhouette and @wonderingwhy. I don’t think any kind of religious or non-universal building should be built on the site. I’d be saying the same thing if there were plans to build a church or a synagogue on that site. It is inappropriate to build something on a site with so much significance for so many Americans that not all Americans can relate to. I like the idea of @Silhouette‘s park.

Also, I would just like to say that I find the bigotry and rash generalizations on this thread absolutely appalling. When those planes crashed into the twin towers, Americans were hurt, not just white, Christian, fourth generation Americans, but all Americans. There are American Muslims who felt the hurt of being attacked plus the added hurt of being targeted because of their religion. On top of that, non-Muslims and people who look like they are middle-eastern such as Indians and Egyptians who are not middle-eastern are being targeted unfairly as well.

@poofandmook
have you forgiven your local church for the inquisition or the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church?

@ragingloli: I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware I had addressed you or anything you said.

Regardless, for the people who had loved ones die, that is nothing but a reminder of those that killed them. Evil Muslims use mosques too. Is there going to be an Evil Detector at the door so it’s only used for the “good Muslims”?

That’s my only point. No religious anything should be there. It should simply be a place of peace and remembrance.

@KatawaGrey nobody is building anything on site. I agree, the only thing on site should be something like a park.

BUT… since it’s two blocks away, that’s a different story than when I thought it was on site. The wording in the linked article makes it sound like it’s on site. I had to Google it independently to see it was off-site.

@poofandmook You did say “I still think it’s garbage.” (I am not trying to argue with you I am genuinely curious about what you are thinking.)

@poofandmook OK, how about construct a centre of enlightenment and inquiry into the disastrous consequences of Globalisation, and the aggressive capitalist infiltration of the Persian Gulf states since the early 19th Century? Sometimes it helps to forgive when you appreciate the motivations behind the misdeed. i mean, the Chauvinistic Obama rhetoric toward Iran, for example, is totally without justification, the USA crashed into their world not visa versa.

I am okay with a mosque erecting a new building to replace the one they are already using.

I would have a problem with a mosque or any faith based building being constructed on the site of the Twin Towers. edit: or anything perpetuating any school of thought besides ‘in memoriam’.

@liminal: I don’t know, I’m sort of back and forth on it. A new mosque and cultural center is going to attract lots and lots of Muslims. Regardless of what should or shouldn’t happen, lots of people look at Muslims with hatred or fear. For some reason, I just don’t see a memorial site for the WTC attack being comforting to families if there is a huge population of Muslims right down the street.

But then, it is down the street. I’m torn on it.

I think the reasoning behind the new mosque isn’t just so they can have a new mosque. The reasoning behind it is because of what’s two blocks away, and that’s the logic that’s twisted and half-assed.

If it’s purely unrelated, then, okay whatever.

@poofandmook, thank you for clarifying. I want to think about what you are saying.

“It is that many of them new [sic] what was coming.”

So did “many” of us. The warning signs were there. We chose to ignore them. I don’t think you have a good grasp on how many Muslim people there are in the world, from how many different nationalities. There are Muslim people in Africa, Malaysia, even America. Saying “many” of them knew what was going on is like saying “many” of them are terrorists. Just flat out not true.

“They often plot these barbaric crimes in their place of worship.”

That is simply a bunch of crap. Refer to previous statement.

I find it hard to believe that the WTC is demolished and the government does not want to or need to replace its infrastructure. The WTC site I am sure is highly coveted real estate. Oh. We’re talking about two blocks away. Even more so is raising a stink about it ridiculous.

I don’t have a problem with a mosque built on the former WTC site, and especially two blocks away. Someone owns a piece of land, wants to build a mosque, great. Who cares.

I am not Muslim but I find their prayer relaxing. Yes 9/11 was a tragedy but we need to move forward. And yes, I am one of those renegades that thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

That “lots of people look at Muslims with hatred or fear” is exactly why building that mosque is a good idea. People need to be clear that the acts of a few do not accurately represent the beliefs and actions of many.

Making a stink about the mosque only perpetuates the hatred and fear. Hatred and fear are a result of ignorance. Ignorance is partially a cause of violence, “terrorism”, and war. “An eye for an eye” can cause needless suffering. We need to be the bigger “person” here and move towards reconciliation not perpetuation of hate, fear, and ignorance.

@lilikoi: You must be realistic enough to know that if someone looks at a Muslim and is scared, seeing a LOT of Muslims doing something that is unusual to American culture isn’t going to make them see the light, so to speak.

@poofandmook If someone looks at a Muslim and is scared, and is too scared or ignorant to reach out to “the unknown” to gain an understanding and educate themselves, they need to deal with their problem. Society should not have to coddle them. That is a really weak excuse for opposing mosque construction. It would be a lot easier for them “to see the light” if there is an opportunity in their community to be exposed to the other culture than if that culture is banished.

@lilikoi: it’s really hard to say that unless you’ve been in their shoes and lived their fear, though. That’s what I’m trying to do.

@poofandmook: New York is a very intensely crowded place. In two blocks’ walking you can be in another world. “On site” and “nearby” aren’t comparable.
Saying people who already worship on a given site (which they own! America! Capitalism! Holiness of property rights!) shouldn’t be “allowed” to rebuild – that’s very unAmerican, you see?
In a nation of immigrants (with a bow to @RedPowerLady), we will always have to manage our feelings about people we’re afraid of or don’t understand. Might as well get started.

@poofandmook No it is not. I have worked past my own fears. I know what it is like to face a fear and work / struggle to move past it.

@susanc Word.

@lilikoi: That’s you. Not everyone is like you.

Like I said, I’m torn on the subject.

If it’s being done now so the bureaucrats can say, “oh, look at us! We love Muslims too!” then it’s half-assed logic. But whatever.

@poofandmook I accept that people are different.You asked if I thought it was appropriate and I gave you my answer and position. Maybe visiting an existing mosque somewhere in your city and chatting up the people that frequent it will provide an interesting new perspective.

@lilikoi: I haven’t got a problem with mosques or the people in them.

I can’t tell you what about it just doesn’t sit right with me, but it’s true. Something about it just doesn’t feel right.

@poofandmook – Did you get it that bureaucrats have nothing to do with this??????
I agree with you that if this mosque were being “built” on the site of Ground Zero, it would be shocking. But it’s not. Say more.

@susanc: They had to approve it. My guess is that they’ve requested it before and were denied, until now, magically about the same time they’re going to start construction on ground zero.

@poofandmook Approve it in terms of building permits? Have you ever been in a mosque?

@lilikoi: it’s not just going to be a mosque. It’s going to be a cultural center too, according to one of the articles I found. For that, you need various permits.

@poofandmook Well maybe I’ve been mis-reading the thread?
I thought this was a rehabbing of an existing building which has been owned for some time by a group of practicing Muslims and has been used as a mosque until rehabbing could be accomplished. I myself was allowed to buy an abandoned oyster processing plant and change it into a home. None of the previous oyster farmers are mad at me. I know that’s different emotionally, but it’s not different legally. I own it, I can do what I need to do with it to make it functional. It’s private property.
I need permits too. I get them. (Well, not always.)
So what I’m getting here is that you believe that permits should be denied to these people because people who practice the same religion have done a terrible thing.
By that logic, I shouldn’t be allowed to make a bedroom here because Andrew Jackson put the Cherokee on the Trail of Tears.
??

@susanc: No I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I am pretty sure this isn’t the first time they’ve applied for permits. It’s been used for years, and I bet you anything they were denied permits for this reason or that reason until now, because now we’re starting to build on ground zero and it makes the government look better. It’s all about publicity. They’re not stupid. They knew that it being so close would put it in the papers if they waited until the right time. So now they look “forgiving” and “embracing” and the whole “olive branch” thing. I guarantee you it was a chess move of sorts, approving the project at this time.

Well yes, I think that could be true.
Permitting in NYC is very political at times.
But how about this: they could have rebuilt sooner, but they weren’t given permits till now because people would have been too upset. Or maybe they didn’t even ask. And now it’s not so toxic because the WTC site rebuilding is actually planned and apparently in progress.
Just a guess.

@susanc: Well if they denied them permits because it would be seen as toxic, then that would be coddling people’s fears, as @lilikoi said. I just think the timing is a little too convenient. I bet you anything the Bush administration denied them at least once. Now the liberals are in the big chair and they have the perfect opportunity to prove how much more humanitarian they are to everyone who cares enough to look.

I think building a place of worship for any one religion on the site is a bit distasteful (and I would say that about a church or synagog or any other religious building too). If they were to truly represent understanding, tolerance and a melting pot, they should either accommodate all religions or none (personally I’d go for the latter, but that may be hoping for too much).

@poofandmook I can’t tell you what about it just doesn’t sit right with me

Apparently true, because you haven’t. You are damning unnamed people for doing unspecified things, because you’re “pretty sure” and “think” and “guess” and “bet” somebody did something that you hate.

@jaytkay: I’m not damning anybody.

@poofandmook Well, replace my maybe too-strong words damning and hate with criticizing and don’t like. Some people are doing something with private property, and somehow it’s a case of bureaucrats and liberals run amok.

@jaytkay: You must realize what mysteriously perfect timing it is. Are you saying it’s absolutely impossible that my theory is true?

The people that live and work in downtown Manhattan tolerant more than anyone who has not done it can fully comprehend.
The streets downtown are narrow and very congested. Even worse than mid towm were the streets are wider.
On my walk from the bus to my building I was bumped into too often. People are always on guard for everything from muggers to bombs.
This construction is and insult to all the 9/11 families and to people working in the area.
Unfortunately you would have to hear it from someone who managed to get out of the Towers to understand.
Everyone living or working in the area was negatively impacted. All of the city was impacted.
If someones relative set your house on fire and they failed to tell you about their erratic behavior. How easily would you trust them? I see this as a good analogy.
People may be able to get past 9/11 some day; but they will never forgot.
History is taught in hope that society learns from their mistakes.
New Yorkers should be protected from all future attempts to harm us. They are still trying. Unfortunately they often recruit people in Mosque. This is not prejudice; this is using how people instinctly feel.
I think many of you can not comprehend what New Yorkers have endured.

@poofandmook It’s also possible that Queen Elizabeth is a member a lizard race which controls the Earth. You have a theory. So? You are angry at people for appearing in a story you made up in your head.

@jaytkay: Oh really now. Seriously, stfu. Lizard race? I’m not the only one who has accepted the possibility of this. If you have a good reason for believing it’s not true, then by all means, let’s hear it. But it is not unlike a government body to strategically make themselves look better to the public.

Your example is ridiculous and childish.

i see it as a sign of unity, and understanding not a bad thing.

people that live in NYC are the most diverse group of people i have ever seen. they live with all sorts of races creeds etc in a very tight space.

and i think that even the families of victims don’t necessarily have something against muslims, rather they don’t like extremism. i.e. it is extremism that killed their families, not ‘muslims’.

to not build it i think would only further the hatred and distrust of muslims.
a friend of mine from kuwait has been here many times. prior to 9/11 people were really nice to her, like telling her ‘oh don’t eat that it has pork in it, after 9/11 she faced a lot of bigotry. i don’t think any kind of hatred is ok. that is why i think the mosque is a nice idea. like extending the olive branch.

@philosopher Do you understand that there is a currently active mosque already in place? The members are New Yorkers who have endured what you speak of.

@poofandmook You believe a story that fits your world view, without any supporting facts. And when challenged you don’t even bother trying to find any, the best you can do is say it’s plausible and not proven wrong. That is willful ignorance.

@jaytkay: and blind faith in one’s government is not only ignorant, it is dangerous. And that is exactly what you’re doing.

You use Queen Elizabeth being a lizard and you accuse me of not finding facts when challenged?

@philosopher Build a mosque at Ground Zero??? WTF? Good God NO! What an insult! Totally outrageous and totally unacceptable. Any active ones there should be immediately torn down and the ground saturated with hog fat!

psst @CaptainHarley, there are no active mosques at Ground Zero.

Psst! I didn’t think so, but just in case… : D

@poofandmook – back again, had to go vacuum my mosque. Picking back up, let’s jump over some of the nastiness that has occurred since we were conversing. About the liberals in the big seat, yes, they are. And when the conservatives were in the big seat, they did what they felt right. Possibly denying permits for political reasons. Should we be upset with one but not the other?
Balance balance balance….. And that timing may have been pretty good. Wait and then loosen. And it’s true what @alive says above. New Yorkers are very used to difference and conflict; it’s normal; they don’t move away. We should probably not attributed feelings to 9/11’s victims’ families without knowing any. Some may feel injured by the existence of any mosques anywhere in the world. Some may be volunteering at that mosque/community center in hopes of making some healing happen.
I feel your pain. The world is big enough to contain it.

@philosopher: “Are you saying the media is wrong?”

Did you really ask that?

fabulous!!!!

@susanc: Oh, I was upset with the previous seat for dozens of other reasons as well. And I’m upset with the current seat for taking advantage of the stupidity of the former.

And vacuum your mosque? Let’s not be nastily sarcastic.

I am not going to continue following this question. It’s turned ridiculous.

I haven’t read any of the above posts, but I think it’s quite appropriate!
Under some conditionds though… As a Muslim I would insist, that other places of worship must also be included, such as Churches, Temples, etc. (but logistically, that maybe impossible). So there should be One place of worship, for all to share! Imagine that, how nice that would be…!?
I say so because if we do not, then there would be no difference between us & our tolerent ways (as Americans) and them (the fundamentalists).

I think it would be inappropriate, but only insofar as many Americans associate 9/11 with Islam, regardless of the actual relationship. Islam has as much to do with the September 11th attacks as Christianity does with the firebombing of abortion clinics. It’s important that those of us posting in this thread recognize that, and it bothers, me @philosopher, when you contend that “many of them knew what was coming” and that they are “immoral evil people.” There are a billion Muslims in the world and nearly a million in the tri-state area. Are you suggesting that a majority of these had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks?

As someone who lost someone on 9/11, I think it’s a good idea. No group (ethnic, religious, etc.) wants to be condemned because of the actions of some extremists and every group has extremists. They already own the land and they want to upgrade their property. I think the plans for the community center sound great and I hope that it can help break down some of the misinformation people have about Muslims. There are so many people I know that have a strong hate for anything that has anything to do with Muslims and I think that is horrible. This mosque has already been there, the Muslims worshipping there have already been present, they just want to have a nicer mosque and community center. What is so bad about that?

For anyone that really does not know much about Muslims, I really suggest doing some research and learning about them. There is a lot of information that can be found that actually makes for some interesting reading.

Totally inappropriate.

Hell no, its not alright! How dare anyone to have even suggested such a thing.Thats more then just a slap in the face.

@slick44 The mosque isn’t actually at ground zero. It’s two blocks away and the group that wants to build a new mosque already owns the land. They have been using an old Burlington Coat Factory building as their mosque and they want to build a new building in its place.

http://www.1010wins.com/13-Story-Mosque-Planned-Near-World-Trade-Center-Si/6982644
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/mobile/mosque-planned-near-world-trade-center

No No No No….Hell NO…totally inappropriate, exceedingly insensitive.

@Seaofclouds… sorry but i stand by my answer. it should be no where near there.

@philosopher I think you cannot comprehend that the members of this mosque are New Yorkers who also endured the tragedy, the absolute tragedy, of 9/11 and betrayal of their own faith. That you keep insisting that they are somehow outside this experience leaves me flabbergasted.

When I posted my answer, I knew nothing of the facts of the situation. There is nothing wrong with building it two blocks away, and opposition to it would only come from the same people that would oppose a mosque being built anywhere.

Personally, I think whoever owns the location where said mosque is being built should have the right to build (or allow to be built) whatever they want there (usual conditions pertaining to safety, traffic flow, etc. given due consideration). Of course, I can understand the Americans here being upset abou it, just as Germans would be upset about a Nazi headquarters being built near the site of the old Berlin wall, or black people being upset about a KKK headquarters being built near the site of the murder of Dr. Martin Luthur King.

Okay- let’s say that it shouldn’t be built near ground zero. Fine. Where then? Where is the line? Is five miles okay or maybe fifty?

The only line is the one of our own emotions, suffering and pain of that day. If we never move on those people died for nothing. They died and we stay stuck in a cycle with no end and no hope.

Hmmm! How about… oh, I dunno… five thousand miles? : )

@gemiwing: They still died for nothing. They should all still be alive. Their death served no purpose. Sure, it united America for maybe a week, until the shock wore off, and everyone went back to hating each other. Now, we’re right back where we started, only we’re in a war that nobody wants and still has nothing to do with what happened that day AND people fear the Middle Eastern countries more than ever before.

can understand the Americans here being upset abou it, just as Germans would be upset about a Nazi headquarters being built near the site of the old Berlin wall, or black people being upset about a KKK headquarters being built near the site of the murder of Dr. Martin Luthur King.

That’s like saying putting a church in Atlanta would be offensive because Christian Eric Rudolph bombed the Olympics crowd.

Easy way to solve this. ask all the victims familys, see how they feel.

@slick44 From the articles I’ve read, they have talked to family members, some of them are for it and some of them are against it.

The thing is, the group is already there using the current building as a mosque. If they could not build a new building, they’d still be there just like they are now.

@jaytkay – No. Christian Eric Rudolph was a single individual acting on his own.

@Seaofclouds… hmmm. i dont no. i guess i would have to be in their shoes. I can see both sides.

@HungryGuy So apparently you believe all of Islam attacked the US on 9/11.

@HungryGuy So what were you trying to say? Islam was compared to the Nazis and KKK because of 9/11. If that were valid, then Eric Rudolph makes Christianity just as bad.

Actually, no need to bring in Eric Rudolph, because the KKK is an explicitly Christian organization. So maybe churches should be banned from every city where they lynched people.

@jaytkay – You’re just trying to attack me for some politically correct end, and trying to provoke an angry argument. No longer following…

@plethora… i dont care what anyone says, Im with you on this one.

@slick44 Thanks…:)

@plethora .. no need to thank me, it is what it is!But your welcome.

@jaytkay All of Islam did not attack America, but all of Islam got sucked into the fray by their fanatical brethren and now they all have the scarlet letter on their forehead. Until someone in Islam decides to wipe away the scarlet stain that their brethren branded them with, they remain a branded people.

It was not just a gang of thugs. It was fanatical muslims attacking us IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. So if the peaceful muslim don’t want to be identified with their maddog brethren, they better takes some steps to separate. Mealy mouthed whining won’t do the trick.

@plethora what will it take?

@liminal Islamic civil war would do it for me….take the bastards out of the picture for good. It’s that serious!!!! On the other hand, that might be too big a task. So they might try a dedicated band of assassins.

@plethora Does that mean we can hold all Christians accountable for the actions of the members of the Westboro Baptist Church as well then? Can we then also hold all pro-lifers accountable for the ones that murder abortion doctors? Ohh, or what about all whites for the actions of the KKK? Cause it’s really the same things. It’s one group of extremists that are part of a larger group. They do not speak for the larger group, they speak for themselves. Only the extremists should be punished.

You make strange connections and throw very broad nets, so broad that it leaves me convinced that you have barely a farthing of knowledge about the difference between these you mentioned and Muslim aims and Muslim practices globally. If you would like an education, I’ll be glad to post.

@plethora Muslim is a broad net as well. I have learned a lot about Muslim practices over the past few years, but if you feel you need to educate me as why the things I mentioned are “broad nets” but Muslim itself is not, I’d be happy to hear what you have to say.

Actually, I would love to hear why you believe we can hold one group accountable for the actions of extremists within that group, but not other groups.

@poofandmook The government may or may not have a hidden agenda. Yes, I see how it could be a sham, and how Muslims seeking to build their mosque are simply a pawn in a bigger political agenda. Another perspective is a private land owner really wants his stupid fucking building constructed and the game pieces have finally aligned in his favor to get ‘er done. Why not take advantage of a situation. Better a mosque than a crack den or whore house.

@Seaofclouds Perhaps I was not clear. All of Islam has been painted with the same brush. Their fanatics did the painting. The fanatics attacked in the name of Islam. Tough break for them.

As to this mosque, the site of 9/11 is hallowed ground and all of NYC is a city that has come under attack. Now why don’t we allow the construction of a mosque, a mosque from which any radical islamic group can operate at will….and they will do that. For your edificaton, see below:
************************************************************************************************************************************************

What Islam Isn’t
By: Dr. Peter Hammond
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, April 21, 2008

The following is adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called ‘religious rights.’

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to ‘the reasonable’ Muslim demands for their ‘religious rights,’ they also get the other components under the table. Here’s how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris —car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam – Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 10–15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that’s not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

‘Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. – Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’

It is good to remember that in many, many countries, such as France, the Muslim populations are centered around ghettos based on their ethnicity. Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. Therefore, they exercise more power than their national average would indicate

@plethora They aren’t building at the actual site of 9/11, they are two blocks away on their property. They already own the building and are using it as they please. All they want to do is put up a new building. They’ve been there, having mass every week for months. Would you prefer to just kick them all out?

You say they need to “wipe away the scarlet stain”, but have you looked at what the Muslim Americans have done to help us? Arab Americans fought with the American forces in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and the two wars we are currently in. In the aftermath of 9/11, American Muslim organizations became critical consultants for U.S. foreign policies toward Afghanistan and Iraq. In addition to offering policy analysis, several American Muslim organizations have made it a priority to work with law enforcement agencies in identifying intolerant attitudes within the Muslim community. Some American Muslim organizations created in the wake of 9/11 have a stated mission to support the armed forces unconditionally in order to defeat the global threat of terrorism. Other organizations have devised alternative strategies, such as fostering interfaith dialogue and examining ways to reconcile Islam with democracy in Muslim societies as a means of dealing with violence and promoting peacemaking. (Source) What about Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan a Muslim-American soldier that enlisted after 9/11 because of the attacks and gave his life helping our country in Operation Iraqi Freedom? He received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart for his actions in the war. Or what about Falur Khan, Bangladeshi-American architect and structural engineer who is considered to be the “Einstein of structural engineering” and “the greatest structural engineer of the second half of the 20th century” for his innovative use of structural systems that remain fundamental to modern skyscraper construction. His most famous buildings are the John Hancock Center and the Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower), which was the world’s tallest building for several decades. There are others just like these. Do these contributions mean nothing?

As for the story you posted, I can understand having a fear that something like that could happen, but do you really think we are headed that way? And if you really do think we are headed that way, wouldn’t it be better to know where they are meeting and having their places or worship instead of them doing it in hiding?

Also, that story still does not explain why you feel that one whole group (American-Muslims) can be branded due to the actions of extremists, but other groups (Pro-lifers, Christians, etc) can’t be branded due to the actions of their extremists.

Eric Rudolph was NOT a Christian! No one who is a christian takes innocent life.

@plethora
”Their fanatics did the painting.”
What a load of rubbish. Not the fanatics did the ‘painting’, people like you did.
”The fanatics attacked in the name of Islam.”
In the same way that the KKK, the Westboro lunatics, the Church during the middle ages and the murderers of abortion doctors attacked in the name of Christianity.
By your “logic” they painted all of christianity with the same brush and everyone should blame the entirety of Christianity for the wrongdoings of the extremists, just like you do with all Muslims. But suddenly, you people come up with fallacious excuses like “no one who is a christian takes innocent lives”, which is rubbish. In the same way, noone who is a muslim takes innocent lives. Remember that Islam is founded on the same ground rules as Christianity and Judaism.
”until the “peaceful” Muslims rise up in arms against their fanatical brethen,”
I do not see alot of “peaceful” Christians rise up in arms against their fanatical brethren either, so therefore all of them should be hated as well, should they not?
“For your edificaton, see below:”
Interesting read, but nothing more than the rambling of an islamophobic, bigoted conspiracy theorist from the same category as antisemitic conspiracy theorists who claim that there is a secret zionist world government.
That you would choose someone like this as your spokesperson is deeply disturbing.

@plethora. That kind of rhetoric is nothing original or unique, but it is, in fact, reminiscent of the kind of stuff that Nazis and white supremacists like to print about Jews. Granted, Muslims are an exponentially larger population, and Hammond’s assertion that Islam is a complete cosmology as opposed to just a religious or cultural system is completely correct. It is sometimes worrying how much truly devout Islam demands from its followers. But there are a few matter we need to clear up.

First, the issue of Shari’a. Shari’a, which in Arabic simply means “path” or “road”, is not one of the original facets of Islam, and for those who insist on its implementation to refer to themselves as fundamentalists is offensive to the hundreds of millions of Muslims worldwide who could give a rat’s ass about Shari’a. Shari’a was developed hundreds of years after the death of Mohammed and the first transcription of his sayings in the Quran. And, until under a hundred years ago, it was not implemented to any meaningful extent in any corner of the Muslim world—including Saudia Arabia (then just Arabia), where it is currently most visible.

As for your statistics, it should be self-evident that we live in a world that is full of crap, and you could just as easily construct similar results with statistics of Jewish or even Christian populations. You could even break it down with different sects of Christianity and the different kinds of violence they supposedly engender. Please don’t confuse correlation with causation. And, most egregiously, please please don’t confuse “Muslims” with “Arabs”. There are a billion Muslims in the world and 90% of them are NOT ARAB.

Muslim fanaticism, again, has nothing to do with Islam. It’s criminals justifying their actions through a bastardization of religion. I won’t dispute that the places your post listed are plagued with the violent activities that you attributed to them, and I’ll even accept that Muslims are the perpetrators of those activities in many cases. But that doesn’t prove that Islam is the cause. Street crime in New York was dominated by the Irish during the 19th century. Does being Irish make you violent? Transplanted minorities always have a hard time, as do third-world countries like the many you listed. You seem to think that the religion—or “cultural system”—of the people involved is an obvious cause, but it’s not obvious at all, and you have a long way to go before you prove it.

Apologists for Islam seldom understand Islam.

@CaptainHarley, and how much time have you spent studying Islam?

excuse me. I understand there are some people who will never be convinced that Islam is not inherently bad, so I won’t try. But what do you find wrong with my post alone?

And those who lump all adherents of any religion into the same drawer with their extremists never do

There are a lot of comparisons here with a lot of significant differences:

Yes, fanatical Christan groups have been known to do things like bomb abortion clinics. The difference between this and 9/11 is that for starters, those were spread out instances at different times. Not as much media attention/interest outside the local level, for the most part.

Yes, Nazis committed mass genocide. Different than the fanatical Christians in that it was done on a much more enormous scale, so it was of world interest. The difference here is that Germany has taken great steps to distance itself from the Nazis, right down to banning video games that include Nazi symbols, even if the Nazis are the “bad guys” in the game.

Yes, the KKK is known for terrorizing people of color. It’s not on as grand a scale as the Holocaust, but it’s on a larger scale than abortion clinic attacks, so it falls sort of inbetween. It’s large enough to get a decent amount of media attention, only it’s not quite big enough to make the United States go to the length that Germany has to distance itself from that group.

Now we have 9/11. A group of radical Muslims did something really out-of-the-box and flew planes into buildings… so right off the bat, you have the “shock and awe” factor. On the same note, you know it was a kamikaze mission, so they felt strong enough about their beliefs to take their own lives to prove it—something the radical Christian bombers, Nazi officials/leaders, or KKK members don’t do… so then you have a double-whammy. Shock and awe x2. So this attack had a lot of components to it. First, it destroyed billions of dollars in property. Second, it killed thousands and thousands of people. Third, it prompted a good deal of people to commit suicide to escape the horror—something you don’t see with the victims of radical Christian bombers or the KKK I don’t mention the Nazis because it was so huge, who knows. Fourth, the attack continues to kill people years later. Diseases and handicaps caused by breathing in dust from the site, for example. PTSD, which is physically crippling in bad cases. Fifth, the cleanup involved took years and years, which was only the case in the Holocaust; not typical KKK or radical Christian attacks.

So basically, the radical Muslims really screwed the majority—the peaceful Muslims. They put all their eggs in one basket, sort of. They didn’t spread themselves thin like radical Christian or KKK attacks, they didn’t take their time like the Nazis. They did it all at once. Their countries are actually protecting the figureheads, instead of doing everything they can to disconnect themselves, like Germany did. And, they did it during a period of time when the world is completely saturated by whatever the media puts out there, and billions of people only know what they see on the news. There were no cameras documenting hours of footage at clinic bombings, KKK attacks, or the Holocaust, broadcasting non-stop on all channels around the entire world.

So while the actions are fundamentally the same across the board, the Muslims went “above and beyond” in comparison to the other three examples. So in a way, the radicals did paint their whole culture with the same brush, unfortunately for those that live in peace with no connections to the terrorist behavior.

عندما يمكنك قراءة القرآن باللغة العربية ، ثم سأناقش معك الإسلام.

@CaptainHarley, sure. But how many Christians do you know who take the Bible literally? Nobody follows the Quran to a T—especially not the extremists. Why should Islam be exempt from the privilege of interpretation? You expect more from them than you expect from everyone else.

I never expect more from anyone than I expect from myself.

We hear this the-Quran-says-this or the-Quran-says-that justification for Muslim hatred pretty often, and it’s pretty frequently coming from Christians who can’t possibly be expected to take the Bible literally. I’m going to have to assume, then, that you ( @CaptainHarley ) are somebody who either abhors organized religion or doesn’t take it at all seriously, because you can’t mean that you’re a Christian who takes the Bible literally. If my assumption is true, then I would ask why you condemn Islam exclusively, instead of the routine atrocities preached and endorsed by other major religions and their holy texts.

If you’ll forgive me for bringing your user biography into this, I want to make clear that as somebody who has actively defended the U.S., your distrust of Islam is understandable and perhaps even justifiable. However, for those of us who haven’t been directly involved in the defense of the U.S. or of American values (and I say that without irony), it’s tough to reconcile.

@plethora
I can not trust them that is my problem. They all seem to empathize with the radical element.
You have made many points I agree with.
In Manhattan everyone has to be alert. I love Manhattan but one bomb could kill many. I believe they plot destruction in their Mosque.
Those who wish to placate them can call me all the names they like. Until you have to live with it you have no right to judge. If your family and friends were murdered you would change your mine.
I have studied history and learn from experience.

@philosopher: I don’t mean to be argumentative; please don’t think that. I’m curious. Your profile here on Fluther says that you judge all people as individuals. That doesn’t really jive with what you’re saying here.

@philosopher—“they all seem to empathize with the radical element”… what does that mean and where are you getting it? Please provide us with some reasons for that view.

@poofandmook
Experience and actions have taught me to totally distrust these people
I think you are seeing the situation through some some mistaken philosophy you have chosen to live by. You are naive and idealistic.
I once was.
I do not wish to attack you.
I simply think America should adopt the attitude that we will not get fooled again.
I was once a Democrat. I have become more Consecrative . Life experience is a powerful teacher. College does not complete ones knowledge.
I am an Independent and I require documentation. @plethora has provided documentation.

@philosopher, @plethora‘s documentation is dubious, and regardless it does not speak at all to an alignment of a majority of Muslims to the radical element.

The problem isn’t Islam vs the West. It’s tribal and medieval attitudes vs The Enlightenment.

Look to Western Europe and Japan for examples of places where people behave much better because they have abandoned overly religious or authoritarian (really the same thing) rule.

The nonsense from Frontpage isn’t documentation, it’s an ignorant screed pretty much identical to what was broadcast about Jews in the 1920s and 1930s, not just in Germany but here in the US, by prominent people in like Henry Ford” and Father Coughlin.

@jaytkay, I think what you’ve noted is a pretty solid middle ground between naivete and religious intolerance. It’s not absurd to suggest, as a corollary, that the places where Islam is most present are historically underdeveloped thanks to factors that have nothing to do with the popularity of Islam.

I am an Agnostic I do not side with any religionists prospective.
Throughout history religion has been an excuse for war. Leaders motivate their people to fight by telling them they are fighting for their religion.
There are many wealthy Muslims nations why aren’t they helping people of their faith that are less fortunate. Why do Muslims wish to settle in the US, UK and other Democratic nations?
Why should America be asked to make all the scarifies on their behalf? Why should any Democratic nation make sacrifices for them?
I openly want what is best for Americans before anyone else. I was born here. My loyalty is to America. I feel no guilt in stating my feelings. We do not own anyone anything.
I also think America should support all real Democracies above other nations.

@philosopher There are Muslims-Americans that were born here too.

Wealthy Muslim nations, for all their many egregious and unforgivable flaws, do engage in charity to other Muslims on an astounding level. The King of Saudi Arabia established a university in Pakistan after the 2005 Kashmir earthquake. They also do it for non-Muslims. Do your research, @philosopher.

As for “why do Muslims wish to settle in the US”... well, wouldn’t you? It’s a wonderful place to live. Let’s not forget:

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

Except for Muslims, right?

@CaptainHarley…I would great answer, your answers twice if i could.

@philosopher: How dare you call me naive and idealistic. You don’t know anything about me. Why did you post this question? Was it to advance your hatred of Muslims?

@poofandmook At least you didn’t get called a MFer in this thread, like me. :-)

If I had realized that the entire point of this question being asked was just a platform to preach blind hate, I never would have answered it at all.

@poofandmook If I had realized that the entire point of this question being asked was just a platform to preach blind hate…

A lot of Fluther ‘questions’ are actually statements. I usually don’t like that, but I found some interesting stuff in here.

For example, you and I had a bit of a spat up-thread but I agree with your more recent comments. Which has me re-reading your earlier posts because maybe I misunderstood (I don’t think so lol).

I am trying to be more dispassionate on Fluther, efforts and results are mixed.

@ragingloli You are so predictable as well as tiresome. I just love pitching to a plethora of liberals.

@jaytkay: I was someone who was greatly affected by 9/11. I thought for most of the day that I lost my best friend. And, when it was all said and done, I sort of wished they’d make the Middle East a parking lot for America’s tanks. So if my previous answers sound a bit different from my more recent ones… it’s a work in progress and I think I’m coming along nicely.

How about building a mosque right next to a church, a synagoge, a mandir, and a pagoda?

I haven’t read through all of this thread yet, I’m going to come back to it. But I just want to say that I think it would be a very beautiful statement of tolerance and a step forward in peacekeeping if they built a mosque on ground zero. I like @mattbrowne ‘s suggestion a lot. If they built a lot of different religious houses, that would send an even better message.

@mattbrowne Why anything of a religious nature? Why not a statement of support for the victims, with no strings attached?

Ahhhh…..the sweet strains of tolerance. As if history just began yesterday.

Tolerance

@FireMadeFlesh – To send a signal. The radical Muslims want the Christians and Jews to hate Muslims. That way they stay in business. I didn’t say such an ensemble of holy buildings should be the only part. Of course a memorial site should also have a statement of support for the victims.

But imagine the impact on the 1 billion moderate Muslims around a world. A mosque at the 911 memorial site. Right next to a church, a synagoge, a mandir, and a pagoda. What a powerful message that would be!

But I know that radical Christians don’t like this either. They want the Muslims and Jews to hate Christians. That way they stay in business too.

Suppose, hypothetically, I claim to be a Nazi, but not one of those Nazi extremists who hate Jews, but rather a moderate reformed Nazi. And suppose a group of us moderate Nazis want to build a headquarters in Isreal a few blocks away but within sight of the Temple (with swasticas and the whole shebang). We even own the site already and aren’t asking to build it on “holy” land. Should we be allowed to do so?

@HungryGuy If you were here, I’d say that was your right as an American citizen. I don’t know how things work over there though, so I don’t know what “right” you would have to do so.

@HungryGuy: What aspect is there to a Nazi if you take away the hatred of anyone not Aryan?

@poofandmook He said moderate reformed Nazi, differentiating for the sake of argument.

@HungryGuy, I do understand what you’re trying to get at, especially given from what must be your point of view about Islam, but it’s simply not an apt analogy. And I think you know it.

@plethora: I can read.

@quarkquarkquark – I think it is an apt analogy. And I still say “yes” to both. If a group of Nazis own land adjacent to a “holy” site in Isreal, and want to build a headquarters there, that should be their right. Likewise, as I said above, if a group of Muslims own land adjacent to the WTC site in NY, and want to build a mosque there, that should be their right.

But I can still understand why the Isrealies would object to the Nazis, and why the Americans would object to the Muslims.

@plethora – You mentioned that at 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare for example in Bosnia which is Muslim 40%. Now at the Srebrenica Massacre in 1995 who killed the 8000 men?

@HungryGuy – There is no such thing as a moderate reformed Nazi.

Nazi’s simply hate anyone who is unlike them.

@mattbrowne – No such thing??? Really?!?!

Yes, really. In my opinion.

@mattbrowne – Really??? I’m shocked to learn that! Utterly amazed and disheartened!!!

@philosopher – Tsk, tsk. Isn’t that an ignorant stereotype?

What would “moderate reformed Nazism” look like?

1) The Jewish are only a slightly parasitic race
2) Pure Aryan people are only somewhat superior
3) Involuntary euthanasia of only the severely disabled people is applied
4) There’s no compulsory sterilization of the mildly mentally retarded
5) Homosexuals only go to prison instead of concentration camps
6) The Gestapo obtain a search warrant before they apprehend and shoot people who oppose to reformed Nazism

I don’t understand why you are shocked. Nazism simply can’t be reformed. It’s a perverse ideology beyond repair.

@mattbrowne Humour is not well conveyed over the internet. I believe @HungryGuy is trying to say that in the same way a Nazi cannot be moderate, a Muslim cannot be moderate, and the whole ideology of Islam is extremist. The last two comments appear to be sarcastic.

@HungryGuy i don’t get the Nazi and Muslim comparison. You really don’t see the differing ideology each group holds?

@liminal: There doesn’t seem to be much of a difference between the Nazis and the types of Muslims that do these kamikaze terroristic things, so my guess is he’s another one of those people who thinks all of Islam is like that. And as someone who admittedly felt that way once, I get it.

Humour was a bad choice of words, I should have said tone of voice.

@poofandmook That makes sense. What happened that you came to realize there is differences amongst muslim believers?

@FireMadeFlesh – Oh, alright, my mistake then. You can’t compare Nazism with Islam though. And moderate Islam certainly exists.

An interesting leading liberal theologian in Islam is Nasr Abu Zayd who developed this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd#Humanistic_Hermeneutics_of_Islam

I wish he had more support in Egypt. Radical Muslims want to kill him. He flew to Madrid, then decided to go from Spain to the Netherlands, where he was invited to teach as a Visiting Professor at the Leiden University.

@liminal: Honestly, it had nothing to do with Muslims in particular. It was a horrible chain of events that made me decide that I had to stop hating people for no good reason. I’ll fully admit that I had a lot of racist tendencies up until rather recently, which I did not voice here, for obvious reasons; I would’ve been verbally slaughtered. I’m actually rather surprised at my ability to abandon most of that. It flits back on occasion, but I can almost always quickly push it away and think, “what the hell is wrong with you, idiot?” to myself. It’s a small part of a giant undertaking in my own personal quest to be a better human being.

@poofandmook Thank you for the transparency! I think we all have had preconceived notions that cause us to be biased or prejudiced. That is the nature of preconceived ideas and we all have them. For me, it isn’t the presence of prejudice that makes one a ‘bad or good’ person, it is how one handles the quest you mention. Rooting out and confronting our preconceived ideas and understanding how they make us biased (and in some instances bigoted) is a noble pursuit. I admire you for it, it would be nice to have more follow your example.

@liminal: Thanks :)

They often plot these barbaric crimes in their place of worship. Not so long ago cowards who rode the night on white horses shouting slurs and burned crosses did the same thing, just a different form of religious building yet no one proposes a ban on churches.

For chrissakes, if its not a horde of Lazy,Violent, Drug Dealing Mexicans invading our land to bankrupt our public services, change our language, enslave our children with their narcotics and rape our women, then it is a sinister jihadist fifth-column hiding among us disguised as moderate, god-fearing Muslims ready to rise up at a given signal to bomb our buildings, change our religion, bring down our government, convert it into an insane Islamic theocracy, murder our children and rape our women.

Don’t any of you see a pattern here? Let me help: WMDs, death panels, teabaggers, “Keep the Government out of My Medicare,” Marauding Mexicans taking over the land, and now our very own Jihad. How many outright lies, how many half-truths, how much hyperbole, how many times do you have to be duped before you realize that these are bloody sideshows to keep you alternatively wringing your hands in fear or wishing to strike out in anger on an emotional roller coaster designed to keep you from bringing the real issues to the polls?

We can afford to be tolerant, we can afford to give the benefit of the doubt, we can even afford to extend the same rights and priviliges to all Americans, because we have a BIG STICK.

We have a Constitution that, despite the most strenuous efforts of the Christian Right in the past 30 years, guarantees separation of church and state—and guess what? We have a National Guard backed by the most effective military force in the world that are sworn to defend that Constitution on the field—so you don’t have to.

These people bought the land and they can use it for whatever they wish within the guidelines of that specific neighborhood’s codes. That’s the law. And none of you can do a damned thing about it without damaging your own constitutional rights.

@Espiritus_Corvus Hear, hear! It’s to distract us from the fact that the economy sucks and is only going to get worse.

@Dr_Dredd I agree about the economy, but I believe it goes much deeper than that. Really, there is only one issue and that the highjacking of our democracy by corporate interests. It has been a gradual process, but the effects have been disastrous to the voice of the common citizen and to the country itself. Of late, this process has enabled our elected officials to prosecute two wars and drain our treasury for generations to come into the coffers of banks through bailouts while bypassing the democratic process and bankrupting the country.

Our democracy has gradually been transferred from the hands of the citizens through a lobbying system that is weighted thoroughly on the side of corporate interests over individual citizens; Supreme Court decisions giving full individual citizen rights to corporations; the erosion of the middle class through real salary reduction and the deterioration of civil rights over the past 30 years; a mainstream news media owned by a very small group of very large multinational corporations with a homogenous political view that no longer serves as our Fourth Estate and has supplanted their responsibility to inform the citizenry with a policy to indoctrinate the citizenry; the control of the money supply in the hands of a cartel of private banks (the Federal Reserve System) which is more than 60% foreign owned that also do not serve the interest of American citizens; a two party political system which history shows supports the policies of each successive regime no matter which is elected, thus ensuring no real change in the march toward undemocratic corporatocracy; a congressional and presidential election campaign process that guarantees candidates will be compliant to the corporation by the time they reach Washington; and an inefficient school system that produces a somnolent, ignorant, politically apathetic constituency devoid of the ability to detect fact from fallacy and obsessed by entertainment and celebrity—enabling all the above to occur with very little notice, leaving us with but an illusion of democracy.

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
—Thomas Jefferson, 1807

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
—Thomas Jefferson, 1814

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
—Woodrow Wilson, 1914, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence.

@Espiritus_Corvus Very well said.

Forbidding the building of a Mosque near ground zero would put the blaim for 9/11 on Islam and no longer on a handful of radicals…

What next ? Forbid churches to be built near school ? I mean, about 0.1% of priests are pedofiels… Less then 0.1% of Mouslims are terrorists…

72% of American’s are against construction of the mosque at this site.

Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are (or should atleast be) abosultes and not sideshows to democracy (as in ‘decided by the majority’) or they aren’t “Freedom”‘s.

You can’t say : “oke, you can exercise your right to freedom of religion of there, but not over there” or again… It’s not Freedom of…

No matter how insensitive or twisted it is, not allowing it will chip at the very foundation of what made America the great nation it was in at it’s conception. When do Terrorist win ? When you change your way of life.

It’s a loose loose situation I’m afraid.