Wouldn't bartering actually make slaves of many people?

Bartering will only work on a friend to friend basis and not for the government. you are correct in some of your own questions. governments could not exist, without taxes. just think of the many benefits that would be lost without taxes. i am for bartering and have used it many times in the past with success. if bartering were used on a large scale, the civil courts would be jammed with lawsuits with people not fullfiling their obligations to each other. we do not live in a trustworthy world, anymore.

While most of what you say has merit, HC, the final sentence there about Capitalism being the best way t keep things clean and orderly is a non sequitor.

You also have to bear in mind that the costs of some services we have is artificially high. I mean, sure, a doctor should get a bit more for their skills than a shelf stocker, but how much more? Historically, doctors didn’t earn terribly much compared to most people until the cost of med school went through the fucking roof and malpractice insurance rose higher. (There is more there, but time is too short to type it all out right now.)

Also, there are certain things that there would nt be much need for. Hell, how many lawyers are tehre outside of the US? I would wager that there are fewer lawyers and accountants per capita elsewhere, but we cause our own pain there.

And how much is a baseball player or an actor really worth? It used to be that actors were virtually unpaid and baseball players earned less than the President of the US. Nowadays, the MLB minimum salary is more than the Prez’s, and many earn 10–50 times that.

I mean, there are ther ways to do things. Maybe Capitalism is the only one that kind of works in a culture of avarice and greed though.

My sister works for a winery, and recieves a number of cases of free wine along with her salary.
She doesn’t drink at all, so she gives it away to friends and family. She also negotiated with a dentist to accept a case of wine for placing a bridge in her mouth.
In this case, I don’t see anything wrong.

I don’t think bartering as the sole system of exchange will work.

Bartering works on a value system based on what you have on hand. Not what you will have.

I will give you an equal value of corn for an equal value of beans.

The Brain surgeon will do the surgery for you. You owning a Mercedes dealership will give him a new car.

You’d just have to come to an agreement upfront. The only problem is that you have to negotiate an equivalency for every trade whereas money is a standard equivalency now.

I was just thinking that if I own a commercial farm one day, I’d like to barter with the chefs I sell my produce to for gourmet cooking lessons.

Good question @Hypocrisy_Central! I agree, bartering can make us into slaves, or at least feel like one. With my business, I first thought it was a great idea when I was already making money with clients. However, during periods where I wasn’t making money, it just seemed like a bad idea, and waste of my energy and time that could have been better spent finding paying clients.

@jerv ” Historically, doctors didn’t earn terribly much compared to most people until the cost of med school went through the fucking roof and malpractice insurance rose higher.” We are a “blame” society, when something goes wrong, or even a mistake is made we want to blame someone, and if someone is at fault they need to be punished or the person who suffered compensated. Hence higher malpractice cost, more layers, more law suits, and the cost of all that being passed onto us. It was a monster of our own creation.

” And how much is a baseball player or an actor really worth?” I believe actors, athletes etc, or like what some man told me about land, it is worth how much someone is willing to pay for it. Because people are willing to spend so much for a concert ticket, to see a prize fight, be more likely to see a movie because such and such actor is in it, quite a bit. If people would draw a line and say I won’t pay more than that and as a collective whole stick to it, they (the powers that be) won’t have a choice but lower the cost or not get it seen or sell any tickets. The price is that inflated because so many people want to go ga ga over celebrities as if they were some Greek gods walking on Earth.

@filmfann ”She also negotiated with a dentist to accept a case of wine for placing a bridge in her mouth.In this case, I don’t see anything wrong.” I am not saying bartering is wrong but as a feasible system it won’t work. In the case of your friend the dentist figured his service was equal to the case of wine or he was willing to accept it (because he was really into wine or something) but another person or dentist might not see that as equal or they may not drink and don’t want to be bothered. What if you promised to trade an expensive vase to get your windows cleaned but your son breaks the vase accidently and now you don’t have it? Simply offering him something else of equal value may not work because he cared to get the vase for whatever reason he wanted it.

@ChazMaz ” The Brain surgeon will do the surgery for you. You owning a Mercedes dealership will give him a new car.” If you did not have a collection of cars yourself or owned a dealership who would you trade straight across for the brain surgery? If you had little possessions or skills you’d be screwed. Maybe you could make 3 dozen smaller barter deals to collectively get equal to what the surgery would cost and hope the doctor accepts it. But if he wanted a Benz or a hot tub and you did not have one then you wait to die I guess.

I think that negotiation is part of the barter business.
You could go to the roofer and say, “I have three chickens a month for three months for you if you can put a new roof on the house.”
Then the roofer says, “Well, I don’t really need that many chickens. How ‘bout two chickens per month for five months?”
That, of course, won’t do, so you counter with “Three chickens a month for two months and I’ll install that sink that your wife was interested in.”
And so on, until both you and the roofer are satisfied and maybe put your agreement in writing. The only loser is the tax guy, who now needs to figure out a way to tax chickens, sinks, and roofs.

The real difficulty is that bartering doesn’t work well in what is a predominantly service economy: most of us are paid for our time, and our products are meaningless on their own.
You could make the argument that loans and credit actually make slaves of people, too.

@Hypocrisy_Central
“It was a monster of our own creation.”
And a little more looking has shown me that the US is in the lead there.

“The price is that inflated because so many people want to go ga ga over celebrities as if they were some Greek gods walking on Earth.”
I have three thoughts here. The first is “Bread and circuses”. The second is a glaring reminder that I am not normal. Not only can I not agree with that sentiment, I cannot even comprehend it. Maybe I’ve seen too many skilled “amateurs” and some highly-paid hacks, to see what is truly special about these people aside from a combination of marketing shmooze and dumb luck. (It makes me wonder why we need to learn any skills other than self-promotion really.) And the third is that I am surrounded by idiots; I weep for humanity.

But to show you why I find the whole thing odd in the first place is that we all basically go for a three-party barter system anyways. I mean, do you work for free? Likely not. Do you work for rent and food? Again, unlikely. Personally, I trade services in exchange for a few bits of computer data (I have direct deposit) that I can then trade to another party for, say, housing, a new computer, or what have you.

Maybe it’s just a matter of perspective.

“If you had little possessions or skills you’d be screwed.”
The drawback of bartering… And life.
Makes one go out and produce/develop a useful product or service to barter with.

“But if he wanted a Benz or a hot tub and you did not have one then you wait to die I guess.”
No way around that. It being a benz, hot tub or money.

Bartering would force people to be (more) piratical and realistic.
:-)

It worked quite well before the industrial age showed up.

Re: “If you had little possessions or skills you’d be screwed.”

How is that different from what we have now anyways? I have few possessions of any notable value (I drive a $300 ‘85 Toyota) and skills…. I have quite a few (machinist, mechanic, electrician, and more) , but I lack the ability to sell those skills. In fact, my people skills border on a certifiable disability yet those are the only skills that really matter nowadays.

Many people nowadays can never afford to retire, even if they do everything right. That sounds a little like slavery; working until you die. Or how about barely getting by no matter what? The guy in the corner office wants to triple his salary every year, so us workers fall behind inflation. Sounds repressive to me, and a bit like slavery.

My stepfather is fairly well-off (low six-figures) and yet constantly complains about “Golden Handcuffs”. Even someone earning five times what I do, more than 90% of Americans, even he feels a bit like a slave since he feels little choice but to stay. Imagine how he’d feel if, like most people, he didn’t have a fat IRA and own his house free and clear. Then he really might not have a choice.

@jerv ” Maybe I’ve seen too many skilled “amateurs” and some highly-paid hacks, to see what is truly special about these people aside from a combination of marketing shmooze and dumb luck. (It makes me wonder why we need to learn any skills other than self-promotion really.)” I have said that to people many times that in today’s society more than it use to be you really just have to be at the right place at the right time, IE, dumb luck to get on the right reality TV show etc. You are basically famous for not being famous and on TV. You get s record contract and because you are popular not because you can act you get parts in movies most college learned drama students won’t ever have a chance at. Or you can coast along off your family’s name or connections. Never the less people want to believe that they have somehow caught lightning in a bottle by being able to say I shook hands with such and such, or had my picture taken with them. Glorified hacks is right with most of them, but thanks to reality TV, YouTube and such these hacks get way more exposure than they ever would 25 years ago.

@Hypocrisy_Central That begs the question: How is it that some people seem to think that the only way to get rich is hard work, and that hard work always makes you rich? It seems that many people think that the only ones who aren’t rich are the lazy and that every single person who has a lot of money worked hard to earn every penny they got.

@jerv Earning your riches sits better with a person’s sense of justice. Work leads to pay, lots of work leads to lots of pay. Or else, you’ve worked hard, or you’ve been through a lot, so you ought to have something to show for it.
From there, it’s not far from the crippling entitlement mentality.

@Nullo That is why I don’t complain about driving an ‘85 Corolla instead of a 2009 GTR; I haven’t earned the GTR.

I do feel that people are entitled to certain things though. We are entitled to basic housing, food, the necessities to get to work, and basic medical care. Now, if I want a flat screen TV, a big house, filet mignon, a nice car, or elective surgery, then I have to get off my ass and earn it.

Unfortunately, our current system is set up such that even hardworking people can wind up starving on the street, dying from ailments that could have been prevented with inexpensive care, etcetera while people who did nothing more than catch one lucky break or exploit others are getting rewarded for nothing.

We can’t do much about human nature being greedy and corrupt, but it seems that many people think it’s wrong to have a safety net at the other end of the spectrum, and many of those people fail to see that hard work and wealth/income are no longer related.

@jerv Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at your list of entitlements?
I feel that we are entitled to life because dead people don’t need anything, air because not having air leads very quickly to not having life, a certain measure of self-determination since this allows one to act on his own behalf, and some public services because we pay for them through taxes.. The rest is charity, magnanimity, friendship, and hard work and I probably left a few out..

It’s good to have a safety net; I just don’t think that anybody owes it to you.

Given that it’s an 85 Corolla, I’d bet that it spends less time in the shop than would the GTR.

@Nullo Mostly through basic human decency; something that is lacking in modern America and is, in fact, often ridiculed in a place where selfishness is not only expected, but revered.

However, I think that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights sums it up nicely. Note Article 25, section 1:
“Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”

This country seems to have been founded on throwing people under the bus, so I don’t expect to win any friends with that viewpoint. The most common critique I’ve heard of that attitude is, “We are not run by the UN, so they can just fuck off!”, or some other assertion of our sovereignty.

Personally, I would like to take what little optimism I have and place it behind the notion that people actually do give a shit about other people, at least to the extent that they do not want others to suffer needlessly. But given how many stories I’ve read recently and not so recently, though it seems to be more common about people walking right by other people literally dying in the street, so I guess that optimism is totally overrated.