Could we have a constructive, intelligent and neutral discussion about the Palestinians and Israel's plight?

Zenele…I’d be willing, but do you REALLY think that we could find a solution to satisfy all?

Yes, I can detach myself and discuss the situation. My difficulty is that I don’t have all the facts, so I don’t believe I can come up with a workable solution.

What I can assert is that both Palestinians and Israelis have the right to safety and tolerance. I really don’t know what else to say. Perhaps somebody will share something that will spark some ideas in me.

No

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies : Would you care to expound on that?

I doubt it. Maybe if you chose the participants but feelings, of course, run very, very high on this issue, if they didn’t there would already be peace in the middle east, at least in Israel and Palestine.

Israel, as a nation, is relatively new as nations go.

This is not “the thousands year old impasse” because the nation of Israel was not founded until 1948.

“On Friday May 14, 1948 (the day in which the British Mandate over Palestine expired) the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel was signed by members of the National Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, representing the Jewish community in the country and the Zionist movement abroad. It went into effect at midnight, Tel Aviv time.”
When was the modern State of Israel Founded?

This occurred after:

”In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of “establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people.”
The British Mandate

@hawaii_jake “on that”

Sure. The OP has requested of me to do something that I am incapable of doing.

I’m an American citizen that currently lives in the Mid-West. It is absolutely foolish of me to believe that I have the what-for-all to discuss a 4,000 year old issue intelligently. Doing so only begs my ego to embrace the very emotion that I was requested not to do.

Perhaps others can, but I cannot begin to associate my understanding of life with such an ingrained ancient issue of such historical heritage. I can fool myself into believing that I can. But I’ve played the fool enough for today. Maybe tomorrow I’ll feel foolish enough to try.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies : Okay. We’ll talk to you tomorrow then.

It’s impossible to completely separate our emotions from our discussion. Unless you want to be a robot I don’t think we are going to achieve anything. Plus, what the hell would we know about objective diplomatic solutions? That’s what those people who are paid to find that out are for. lol

It is very, very unlikely that any of us could remain cool-headed for very long, and I can guarantee that even if we did, somebody with a shorter fuse would pop in here and make a mess of things.

@Arisztid As long as we’re being pedantic, let’s be sure to also point out that Israel as a culture has existed in various shapes and sizes for thousands of years, and has spent most of them right there on the shores of Palestine. In, one might add, a nation-state called Israel.
Palestine, by the way, is (or perhaps more appropriately, was) the name of the region. “Palestinians” are called such because they moved into the region called Palestine after the diaspora.

And we all have our biases. The conflict between Israel and Palestinians is not thousands of years old. Israel was given territory belonging to to other people by people who had no right to give that territory away. It is too late to undo all that has been done, that is the reality of the situation, but Israel certainly needs to make more concessions than it it making. It has land that it really has no right to and they need to give some of it back. And the Palestinians need to realize and accept that there is and always will be the nation of Israel. It is there. And it won’t be going anywhere soon.

On what land was America formed, @lillycoyote? On what land was any nation formed for that matter? U.N. resolution 181 partitioned land that was under British – and not anyone else’s governing – to three parties: the Arabs there (just Arabs – they still didn’t call themselves Palestinians then – it didn’t even cross their minds) the Jews and the International community (around Jerusalem).

Canada in 1867 any different?

India or many other countries in 1948?

What’s so “illegal” about the U.N. voting on, and deciding upon Israel’s existence? What makes that land more Palstinian (again, they didn’t exist yet then – there were Arabs in that part of the country but they didn’t call themselves Palestinians any more than they called themselves British)?

One more thing: Israel exists. Period. The few surviving Jews after WW2 and the current 6 million Israelis aren’t going anywhere. There is no-where to go.

It’s a democracy.

Arab countries have yet to form a democracy. Even those who have been around for ages, have nothing to do with Israel and have all the oil and riches in the world. Not one. (Look what happened in Iran after their so-called elections. And Assad in Syria got 100% of the vote.)

Israel is surrounded by enemies, most calling for the destruction of the State in their charter (including Hammas – who although not a nation – was actually elected democratically – a known terrorist organization) – does this lend to a seige mentality? You bet.

I’ve been given to understand that this really is a “thousands year old impasse”, as @zenele stated, because the Palestinians and Israelis believe that they have a blood feud lasting millennia. Each feels entitled to the “birth right” of Abraham, and each feel that they are the “chosen people”. I can’t imagine how this dissonance can be resolved in the present day, unless or until someone can demonstrate which people truly have that those distinctions.

@eden2eve I’m secular and could care less about the “chosen people” stuff of lore. What is Israel to do in this situation is what I’m asking here?

It is said that if the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be peace.

If Israel lays down her weapons, it won’t exist any more.

Sadly, this is the sentiment in Israel.

@zenele
This was just to remind us of how deep-seated and how long standing is the feud between the peoples. Notwithstanding what any secular people might feel, many of the people involved feel very invested in this lore. I don’t think that current-day political or philosophical engineering can erase the hatred they feel for one another.

I don’t believe that the Arabs will lay down their weapons, do you?

@zenele, @eden2eve Do not forget, in your collective secularism, that Israel’s historic existence is a solid fact.

* gets popcorn *

@Nullo * Munches on some of your popcorn * I don’t understand you.

@eden No, I don’t. That’s why we have to bring a gun to a knife fight.

Well that’s one way to “have a constructive, intelligent and neutral discussion about the Palestinians and Israel’s plight”.

reaching for the popcorn I’m surprised this conversation turned so quickly into one about Israel’s establishment. I want to be like Cher slapping Nicholas Cage saying, “Get over it already!” but I guess this goes with the territory.

Wait. What? Territory? Whose territory? Arabs? Jews? Palestinians? Crusaders? Freemasons?

The fundamental issue is the movement of people. There were people living in the area before 1948, and then after 1948 thousands of other people moved in.

There’ve been hard feelings ever since.

I once read in an erudite, high-fallutin foreign (non-US) magazine that the great story of the twentieth century would not be atomic energy/bomb or flight or the trip to the moon, but it would be the massive movement of people across the globe. Millions upon millions of people left their homelands in the last century and moved to new areas often thousands of miles away.

Perhaps what we have here is just another chapter of that movement.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I asked whether we could, I didn’t say I could. I did ask it in General specifically so that it wouldn’t get personal and ugly – so far so good. My question is – can you contribute to the conversation – or do you just want to munch popcorn and toss in a rhetorical question? * good popcorn, btw. *

@zenele Just trying to head off the eventual “Palestinians were there first!” claim.

I think that the Palestinians and their sympathizers have made it very clear that they do not want Israel there. At all. Explosively so.
I think that the Israelis aren’t terribly keen on being made to leave, though more than a few are willing to share.

That’s all that I can say without touching off a firecracker someplace.

I also think that Israel’s history in the region adds to their present legitimacy.

And I really like the way that the Israeli government is able to brush off the scorn and criticism of busybodies in other countries. A sort of “Well, it’s nice that you can form an opinion. If you don’t mind, I’ll be over here doing my own thing.” They don’t flinch, they don’t spin or backpedal, they don’t worry about how Pee Cee they’re being, they just do things.

How can you say that you want a neutral disussion when the very question you ask is worded in a distinctively non-neutral way?
“neutral discussion about the Palestinians and Israel’s plight?”
What about the Palaestinians’ plight? Do they not have the right to be mentioned in the same way as Israel? Unless of course you just forgot the apostrophe ’ after “Palestinian”, in which case you are forgiven.
As for the question, At this point the only solution I see is sending UN Peacekeepers into Gaza to stop the attacks from the Palaestinian side and to end the embargo on Palaestina to lay the groundwork for peacful and dignified life on both sides of the wall, which is required if you want to have successful peace talks. We might have to force them both to the table as well as both sides have shown themselves to be unwilling and unable to achieve lasting peace on their own, Hamas by shooting their junk rockets into Israel and Israel by not adhering to the agreed cessation of building settlements in occupied palaestinian territory. Both of that must stop to begin peace talks and it seems they must be forced to do that by a third party, as unfortunate as it is.
You can sit by and watch two boys brawl with each other to settle a dispute, but at some point you will just have to separate them yourself.

@zenele No, I am incapable of contributing to the conversation in any meaningful way. I’m simply attempting to satisfy definition #4, as I know you enjoy that so.

I say give them all a free Wii console and let them work off their aggression playing Wii Fit, until they are too tired to fight. Then and only then, may we expect them (not us) but them to detach themselves “from emotion, look at the problem objectively, and suggest diplomatic solutions to resolve the thousands year old impasse”.

“On what land was America formed, @lillycoyote? On what land was any nation formed for that matter? U.N. resolution 181 partitioned land that was under British – and not anyone else’s governing – to three parties: the Arabs there (just Arabs – they still didn’t call themselves Palestinians then – it didn’t even cross their minds) the Jews and the International community (around Jerusalem).

Canada in 1867 any different?

India or many other countries in 1948?

What’s so “illegal” about the U.N. voting on, and deciding upon Israel’s existence? What makes that land more Palstinian (again, they didn’t exist yet then – there were Arabs in that part of the country but they didn’t call themselves Palestinians any more than they called themselves British)?”

@zenele I like your honesty. The strong take what they will. They always have, they always will. Despite any pretense to the contrary. Whether this is right or wrong, depends only and entirely on which side you stand. On the receiving end, or giving.

@ragingloli Israel is represented here in its capacity as a state. There is no Palestinian state, so one cannot refer to it in quite the same way.

@Nullo Actually, though you are correct, grammatically I was correct: if you speak of two in plural (my nieces and nephew’s plight, e.g.).

@Nullo and i suspect the concept of a Contemporary Israeli state, was pressurised into being, by what you probably refer to as terrorism as well as Political Lobbying and tonnes of cash, (all Kosher of course). Why shouldn’t the Palestinians follow a tried a trusted method in order to accomplish their goal of statehood? Having said all that, is the Indian Subcontinent a better place with India and Pakistan pointing Nuclear weapons at each other? who knows. But Gaza is a miserable, impoverished warren by all accounts.

@mammal No, contemporary Israel was made when Great Britain (which held the region) said, “Alright, we’ll give this area to the Jews,” and the Jews came.

@zenele See, this is the kind of thing that I’m talking about. Wait for the slightest excuse and wham!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0

Absolutely.

This should also be seen.

@zenele – Your argument would actually be much stronger if the choice of your sources contained a more balanced view on the incident. If you never criticize your own government it makes people wonder about the state of democracy in this country. Soldiers botching up a mission is not criticism of a government. I’m not happy how the Israeli government is handling the situation. I’m not happy how the German government is handling some situations. And I don’t see a problem stating this. Americans criticize their governments all the time as well. And that’s a good thing.

I am very critical of the government – especially as they have come and gone at an average of every two years without a solution to the problem. They suck, and let me count the ways.

The video was just an example of how the soldiers are prepped – as opposed to the terrorists on the boat who were prepped to become shahids.

Israelis, even the IDF commandos, truly want peace.

@zenele The whole blockade running stunt looks to me to be the dissenters baiting the IDF.

I do know, at least to me, it is getting harder and harder, and has been for quite some time, to tell the good guys from the bad guys in the “Palestinians’ and Israel’s plight.” Palestinian and Arab groups engage in acts of terrorism. The state of Israel engages in state sponsored terrorism, and ghettoizing Palestinians and engaging in things like collective punishment, condemning “the other”. And if anyone should know better, it’s the citizens of Israel.

@lillycoyote I’ll share a little secret with you: Israel is a democracy. Israel is a very important ally of the US in the middle east. Hamas has “destroy Israel” in its charter. When there is no blockade, Hamas is fed rockets from Iran – via Turkey or Syria – and lobs them into Israel. I have felt them; they aint fun. What would the US do if Mexico, from its side of the border, lobbed rockets into Israel? Do you think it wouldn’t want to check trucks and boats coming in from IRAN??!!

Here’s the secret: The flotilla has been on everyone’s mind but I’m sure some other global act of horror will take it off the front page soon enough. If only the world could really see/feel what we do. If only they knew that it was very simple: the Arabs should just lay down their arms, give up terrorism and recognize Israel: Israel would – in 2 seconds – guarantee them a homeland, peace and prosperity, and everyone would be happy. I think even Jerusalem wouldn’t be an issue – because Israel would simply share it – both countries would call it its capital – just as borders are fluid in Europe.

I live here. I have been through 3 wars. We are tired of war. We do not condemn the Palestinians, we are not set out to destroy them. Every gov. elected here, including this one, calls for a Palestinian state. Gaza is free to do whatever they want – we aren’t there. It’s like saying Canada would elect a terrorist government and just shoot rockets into the US because there is a naval blockade checking boats. And where is Egypt – their brothers in all this? Why do you think Egypt has a blockade against Gaza too? Because other than rockets – Hamas isn’t interested in communicating anything – so the Arabs are also against them.

Israel, this time, is in the right.

When it occupied Gaza, and Lebanon until 2000, it was in the wrong.

Now, it is about survival.

Personally, your armchair view from there won’t help me when the rockets rain down on me again. Your politics aren’t helping Gazans or Israelis.

Where are the Saudis et al and all their wealth? Why aren’t they helping their poor brothers in Gaza? Why are they even Israel’s problem? Where would Israel be today without Rothschild and other wealthy Europeans and Americans after WW2?

Why dn’t the Arabs help their brothers? Why don’t they call out for Hamas to reject terrorism, recognize Israel?

Because they like it that way. It’s convenient. They don’t want to deal with the Palestinian problem. It’s a way to bash Israel.

Sad that you fall into their hands.

Israel’s national anthem is Hatikva – the hope – and in it talks about peace with the Arabs. I can show you hundreds of songs about peace with them.

Can you show me one Arab song about peace with Israel?

Can you show me one textbook that doesn’t call for Israel’s destruction?

Look at the two generations being raised. Sad.

@lillycoyote This article makes the point that blockading one’s enemies is really, really old hat. There is no siege on Gaza; Israel funnels in millions of dollars in aid every day. They just want to keep the more antagonistic Palestinians from getting more rockets.

Israel is the one sending in the aid. Hundreds of trucks go in daily – I have watched them. All boats with aid, after being checked for arms, can safely go to Gaza.

And by the way – isn’t it time for them to get their shit together and start working – and stop their terrorism? Israel was a desert when the first Jews arrived – the Arabs here had done nothing – just as they continue to do nothing in Gaza.

Israel is not in Gaza – why don’t they look to their Arab brothers for help and start acting like a State? Why aren’t Saudis, Iranaians and Turks flying in to help them set up an infrastructure and get the fuck to work – instead of putting everything into terrorism and rockets?

@zenele I adore you but your asking to have a “constructive, intelligent and neutral discussion about the Palestinians and Israel’s plight” seems a bit disingenuous if you are going to be patronizing and argue that that since I don’t live in Israel I can’t possibly know what I’m talking about and am blinded by politics. Israel, as nation is not immune from the same kind of criticisms that any nation is subject to. And you are all putting words in my mouth. @you and @Nullo, I didn’t say anything about the blockade.

@lillycoyote I asked “Could we” – I didn’t say I could.

I adore you too, dear. But I live here, and am passionate about survival.

@zenele “why don’t they look to their Arab brothers for help and start acting like a State?”

I believe the wisdom of Fyodor Dostoevsky may apply here.

“Deprived of meaningful work, men and women lose their reason for existence; they go stark, raving mad.”

“Power is given only to those who dare to lower themselves and pick it up. Only one thing matters, one thing; to be able to dare! ”

“The greatest happiness is to know the source of unhappiness.”

And another I can’t find, speaking specifically to @zenele‘s question as to Why. Something to the effect of:
“Power is held by those who can trick the masses into believing and dying for a noble lie.”

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Who is depriving them of work?

@Do you really think that if Israel made some concessions on land, if they really worked to make lasting peace that it would mean Israel’s ultimate destruction? Do you really believe that the international community would permit the complete annihilation of Israel? I don’t think so.

@lillycoyote I didn’t see the World jumping to attention until very late – and 6 million Jews were killed – in WW2. I didn’t see them jumping in in the Yom Kippur war. I don’t see anyone erally doing anything to stop Iran’s nuke capability – and he has called literaly for Israel’s destruction – literally calling for wiping Israel off the face of the earth.

Israel is far. And tiny. Who’d come in time?

P.s. What concessions? Gaza is Gaza. Israel is not in Gaza. Why aren’t there any complaints from the west bank Palestinians? Why no outcry – no protest? Because everyone agrees that Hamas run Gaza is a problem – and Israel must protect itself – from the rockets. It’s a simple fact.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies There are many kinds of power. There’s brute force, for instance. And there’s my own favorite, the combination of personality and word choice. And then there’s the power to stop sitting on your hands and do something constructive, which I do not really notice the Palestinians doing.

@lillycoyote I certainly do. There are those in that bunch that will not rest until Israel is no more. Israel has made concessions, and it still has enemies. That article that I linked goes into some detail on Israel’s land strategies.

I’ll repeat what I wrote before, it may have gotten lost in my diatribe:

Here’s the secret: If only the world could really see/feel what we do. If only they knew that it was very simple: the Arabs should just lay down their arms, give up terrorism and recognize Israel: Israel would – in 2 seconds – guarantee them a homeland, peace and prosperity, and everyone would be happy. I think even Jerusalem wouldn’t be an issue – because Israel would simply share it – both countries would call it its capital – just as borders are fluid in Europe.

Iran doesn’t have any nukes, Israel does, so they are ahead of the game already. And if and when Iran does have nukes, and that is a pretty big if and when, as big a nut case as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is, do you honestly think he would be crazy, stupid and suicidal enough to launch a preemptive nuclear strike against Israel? Not a chance. And who would come to little, tiny, far away Israel’s defense? The U.S. and we pack some pretty serious firepower.

@zenele “Who is depriving them of work?”

You just suggested they ”...get the fuck to work”

Obviously their leaders are depriving them of work, which as Dostoevsky suggest, causes them to “go stark, raving mad.”

That’s the connection I was attempting to make.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Okay. Certainly Israel isn’t stopping them from working – or stopping them from overthrowing their stupid Hamas terrorist government. Where’s the CIA when you need ‘em?

@lillycoyote
Iran doesn’t have any nukes
Not yet, anyway. The Iranians are working to remedy that.

as big a nut case as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is, do you honestly think he would be crazy, stupid and suicidal enough to launch a preemptive nuclear strike against Israel?
I would expect him to put in some more planning, but yes. More likely, there would be an “accident” and someone would move the device to Israel to set it off. Or try.
Incidentally, setting off a nuke waaaay over Kansas would knock out power and unhardened electronics across the whole continental United States.

The U.S. and we pack some pretty serious firepower.
In case you haven’t been watching, ol’ Barry has been backing away from Israel, in keeping with his tendency to want us to be the way the U. N. thinks that we should be.

@zenele – The IDF handled the Irish ship very well. Again, an international investigation would help Israel. The outcome could be that Turkish politicians have to reconsider some of their earlier statements.

The Irish ship had real Peace-loving people on board – disillusioned, wrong in their approach – but well-meaning.

They were asked to board and be inspected. They allowed the soldiers to do so.

The boat was taken to harbour, processed, the peace activists flown home (this is getting expensive, n’est ce pas) and the boat’s stuff will be sent to Gaza.

The more pictures and stories I get from the Marmara, the more respect I feel for the soldiers for having shown incredible restraint. Can you imagine the horror the three soldiers who were stabbed felt when they were dragged below deck and held for ransom?

I would have gone onboard gun blazing.

Blockade (right or wrong) aside: we now know who those men were on board the Marmara – some were Al Qaida terrorists, some just trouble makers. All were paid in cash – all were expecting to became shahids (martyrs).

The Marmara was a different story altogether – and I blame the stupid Israeli Foreign Affairs Dept. for not showing the photos and not explaining what happened. To think a Turkish newspaper got the scoop on the photos of the soldiers being held???!!! And it’s a week later?

Someone in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is asleep.

@zenele – My point exactly. The Turkish government might distort the whole incident. If Israel tells the world these 9 Turkish citizens were violent at least 50 countries won’t believe the Israeli government. If a UN team (which should include members from Muslim countries) comes up with findings that contradicts the Turkish government, the world becomes a safer place. Malaysia wants Israel referred to International Criminal Court. Now if a UN team tells the world this is baseless because… Get my point? We need to learn the truth. I don’t want 100,000 new terrorists.

The United Nations Human Rights Council has agreed to send an “independent international fact-finding” mission to investigate the Gaza aid flotilla attack. Israel should cooperate.

I have yet to see an independant UN anything – and I know them up close and personal. Again, for the last time: imagine if the US or any other occupying country (and in this case Israel is not occupying Gaza – merely blockading it – checking the boats for the muitions to a TERRORIST Hama state – then sending them in – had an international, UN or other crappy biased organization come and check it out. Nine terrorists were killed aboard. 9 get killed daily in Afghanistan, Iraq and many other war zones. For doing nothing other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is called collateral damage – and the US will never allow any investigation of any incident – a kazillion miles away – in a countries that hadn’t even declared war on them – because of an Al Quaida attack nine years ago – in the US.

If Gemany had to separate itself from a Hamas led entity, which shelled thousands of rockets into it – I’d really be afraid to see how it would react. Hundreds of these flotillas have come and gone over the years – hundreds – only the Marmara was bloody – and we know why.

I think its time you, Germany, the UN, Europe and everyone else get off their high horse, stop pointing fingers and calling for international inquiries. When I see one, just one fucking UN international inquiry into just one, one fucking rocket of the thousands shot into Israel from behind civillians and at civillians – I’ll call for an investigation myself.

That, my friend, is called a double standard. I weary of it.

UN paranoia will only isolate Israel further and endanger its safety in the future. The same goes for the US when the Bush administration was in charge. They basically said the UN is irrelevant. We are the law. You are either with us or against us. A very wrong and dangerous path.

The UN is not perfect. But it’s all we got on a global level.

We need to win the hearts of 1.7 billion Muslims worldwide. Most are decent folks who just want to live in peace. But anything that is seen as unfair and unjust will drive more of them into radical groups. The government of Israel creates new islamist terrorists every day. Every new house in East Jerusalem creates at least 100 new terrorists. The Israeli government no longer cares what countries like the US or Germany is saying. They want no advice. They think they are the only wise government in the world. This is an extremely dangerous path.

Hamas is a dangerous terrorist organization. Everything needs to be done so that no weapons reach Gaza. But if something goes wrong, the world has a right to know what happened. We need to rule out the hypothesis that some of the IDF soldiers committed a crime, for example because they are so angry as a result of Hamas shelling thousands of rockets into Israel.

We can’t have an international investigation for everything happening in the world. But this is a special case. And the Israeli government is foolish not to recognize it as such. This is a diplomatic disaster for Israel. Because the Israeli government is so extremely stubborn. Because this government has lost the ability to listen to friends from other countries.

We need to interrupt this vicious circle of escalating hatred.

If the arabs were decent folks who just want to live in peace – it’s time to A. Vote in a democratic government and let the people lead their nations B. Denounce terrorism, not laud it C. Come up with peaceful slogans instead of Shahid, Shahada, Alla Akbar and Big and Little Satan (the US and Israel) D. Help their brothers in Gaza – which is unoccupied – to get the fuck going and stop rocketing Israel – hell, even Egypt blockades Gaza. and finally E. Instead of global Jihad and coverting everyone to Islam – start fluthering and discussing the situation.

Let’s have the UN investigate Gaza’s rockets.
Iran.
Syria.
The Us in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Turkey and the Armenians.
North Korea (or are they chicken?)

You said it: 1.7 billion arabs – and you better be afraid – or start sprechen ze Arabisch.

Me, I’ll just keep trying to hang onto this tiny piece of land – dreaming of peace. The anti-semitic, double-standard, Arab loving racist crappy organization UN can kiss my ass – but I wouldn’t fear an investigation: there’s nothing to hide. All the flotillas before, and the current ones who agree to be checked, confirm this. The Al Qaidists that attacked the Commandos got what they came for: Shahada.

Quote from a Turkish brother of a slain flotillist: I am sorry my brother was killed, but happy he died a Shahid.

Me, I’m just sorry he was killed. Period.

That’s the difference.

I said we need to win the hearts of 1.7 billion Muslims worldwide.

@zenele and @mattbrowne Just to ensure that you both end up hating me and telling me to butt out I will play referee here for a moment. @zenele, @mattbrowne is right, you are confusing Arabs with Muslims and Matt, you are assuming that all Muslims are of the same mind and of the same heart and that all need to be “won over.”

@mattbrowne You did indeed. Amongst many other things. I disagree – they don’t want to win your heart. They want you to become Muslim. Ask them.

@zenele You are also assuming that all Muslims are of the same mind and all believe the same thing.

@zenele and I go way back. We met on wis.dm many years ago. I consider @zenele to be one of my best online friends. I care about Israel. It makes me sick to hear about Hamas criminals shooting rockets into residential areas killing innocent children. Many times I have posted comments explaining why Hamas and all the other terrorist groups are so dangerous to all of us.

Right now I don’t think the Israeli government is doing the right thing to deal with the situation. Friends can disagree and still respect each other.

I think we need to discuss solutions instead of reiterating known problems. One solution is that Israeli voters too elect a more moderate and more creative government, at least one that doesn’t appoint a known racist to become their foreign minister. Another solution is not building one single house outside the territory of Israel as recognized by the UN. This solution would include giving up borders drawn more than 2000 years ago, because this leads nowhere. These ancient people actually displaced other ancient people whose descendant could also make a claim to get their ancient territory back, which is ridiculous of course.

@lillycoyote – I know that not all of the 1.7 billion Muslims are of the same mind and of the same heart. A few are criminals. Some are extremely conservative, but not criminals. Many are moderate and open minded. Our neighbors were hosts for an exchange student from Indonesia for an entire year. She’s a Muslim and wonderful young lady, peace loving and extremely smart. We met her many times. Now she’s back but keeps in touch. I also know people from Egypt and Turkey. Good people. And I know other people in Israel. All good people.

Again, we need to interrupt this vicious circle of escalating hatred. But how? What are your proposals?

I have tremendous admiration and respect for @mattbrowne and it’s rare that we disagree on anything – especially as I have so much to learn from him and usually do just that.

Here, I take some exception to certain things – but in the long run – it’s mostly because it’s emotional and personal for me – and his remarks have become entangled (in my mind) with the others here – some of whom have been disgustingly (and surprisingly) racist and hurtful.

Everyone has an opinion, and sometimes we disagree. But Matt and I are always respectful of one another, and I know deep inside he cares for Israel, Jews and me. I couldn’t ask for more than that. Friends will disagree – sometimes convince one another, sometimes just agree to disagree and move on – but ultimately always learn from one another.

Is it asd that there’s a blockade? Yes. Was the event horrific? Definitely. Should it be investigated? It will be. Do I hope the blockade ends and there is peace in the Middle East? Of course. Should Lieberman be the foreign minister? I would give my right arm for him to step down (he’ll probably be arrested and tried soon anyway). Is this the most creative and smart government Israel can put together? My god no, but I think all the brainy people went into High Tech and left the a-holes for politics – like in most countries.

So we agree.

Fluther is a much better place because of people like him. I am honoured to be considered his friend.

Lily, meet me and Matt for coffee and doughnuts later in the watering hole?

@zenele I can’t think of two more interesting and intelligent, not to mention fun wis.dm/Futher guys to have coffee with. Since Matt’s in Germany, you’re in Israel and I’m in the U.S. should we all meet in Sidney AU :)? Or should you and I just show up at Matt’s place?

We can meet here

The Law

The Geneva Conventions

A nice place to make love.

Thanks for your wonderful comments. I share your feelings :-)

And yes, we should have online chat some time soon. Maybe Saturday?

This saturday I’ll be home and free from about 14:30 in the afternoon (Jerusalem time), if that’s good for you. Or in the evening. But Lily doesn’t like chat.

Not war

@zenele and @mattbrowne Sorry about not liking chat. Maybe with just the three of us I can manage.

Perhaps just a virtual menage a trois, then? But you know, @lillycoyote there are several chatrooms – we can always grab an empty one.

@zenele Isn’t that what Jesus said? In my father’s mansion, there are many chatrooms? :)

@zenele and @lillycoyote – Can we use PMs or email to work out the details, date and time?

@mattbrowne @lillycoyote With three different time zones it’s looking like we’ll have to just communicate in this thread.

@zenele and @mattbrowne unless the mods get us. We’re kind of getting off-topic and this question is in the general section.

@lillycoyote Yeah – but it’s mine! JUst kidding – it is 77 responses in already – who cares about the topic. It was about beaches and ice cream, no?

@zeneleThat’s what I was thinking. It’s your question. No matter what section it’s in, it seems like the person who asked should be able to decide whether people can go off topic or not. 77 responses and yet the Israeli/Palestine problem has not been resolved by the armchair diplomats and warriors of Fluther :). Imagine that.

@lillycoyote They are signing peace treaties as we speak.

@Very nice. I guess now that that’s settled the people of Fluther can move on to cleaning up the oil spill.

@lillycoyote You did an @ very nice – which meant me I guess.

Hadn’t you heard? The jellies have collectively found a way to cleanup the oil spill – something about a giant vacuum cleaner and some quantum physics space/time continuum oil eating plankton from space – @mattbrowne will give you the details.

LOL. @zenele Yes, I meant you. Maybe that can be your next user name: VeryNice. :) And what next. That’s sounds better than my idea which was to blow the oil into a giant bucket using all the hot air generated here.

Aer you fluthering from the beach?

I called Ambassador Spock. He knows how Romulans and Vulcans can make peace. After all they got common ancestors. Same on Earth. One is called Abraham. God loves both the children of Isaac and Ishmael.

Spock will figure it out.

You know, @mattbrowne if you put on Seek’s ears, you could pass for Spock.

Maybe the mother of T’Pol would allow me to fall in love with her daughter then ;-)

You are 100 years too young to marry T’Pol

@mattbrowne You do remind me of him a little – and I mean that in the nicest of ways.

Well, Vulcans get very old. I’m sure T’Pol would want to marry a logical 250-year-old ambassador.

I was 16 when Star Trek first came to Germany. I was most impressed by Spock. Not Kirk.

@mattbrowne That’s a very logical viewpoint. :-)

I’m more Kirkish.