Will Fremont, Nebraska be successful in banning illegal immigrants?

I understand their concern but i do feel very sorry for all the illegal workers that will lose their jobs and won’t be able to support their families, Nebraska has all the right to feel that way but they are not crminals, is hard being illegal even if you have job, illegal people is in complete disadvantage while living here, and they’re here not because they want to but because they have to, and americans should not feel threatened by them, I am not saying it’s ok to be here illegaly but they’re not murderers, I know there are criminals among the illegal people but we should not judge’em the same

@Ludy while I understand your sentiment, you are speaking oxymoronically. Illegal residents of the United States, are in fact, by definition, criminals. They have violated US law by being here without permission. That is a criminal act.

This is why there is no Federal move to fix the problem.

The idea that a human being can be “banned” is a pretty fascistic concept.

@bolwerk Might you explain how it pertains particularly to fascism? I am somewhat unfamiliar with the philosophy.

In any case, we ban people all the time. My store has a list of people from whom we no longer accept checks, for instance, and another list of people who will be escorted off the premises if ever they show up. Forum moderators ban disruptive users. By issuing warrants, criminal justice agents effectively ban criminals from their area of jurisdiction. By not inviting in Mormons or JWs, you are effectively banning them. By locking your doors at night, you are banning trespassers.

@Nullo Right, because Jon Kyl (a veteran politician who is 100% honest) should be trusted to recall and relay a conversation verbatim that isn’t in any way politically motivated. Indeed, he hasn’t been so anti-immigrant as he (and McCain) are now, as this very conservative blog illustrates. He, like most politicians, panders to whatever he thinks will allow him to stay in office (witness McCain’s conversion on illegal immigration from a “maverick” who wanted a comprehensive reform package to being staunchly opposed, all in the span of three years).

They may be successful in doing this but I can assure you that the illegals will find a way to stay because their necessity is bigger than their fear of getting caught. There will always be someone willing to pay for cheap labor and there will always be someone willing to lie in order to stay. Some people just don’t get it. Trying to send them all back to their country is NOT GOING TO WORK! They are not going to just pack their bags and go! Some of these people have spent a lifetime in this country and they have nothing to go back to. Some of these “illegal immigrants” were brought here as children and have no recollection of their native land. How do you expect someone who was raised here to just pack their bags and go to a country they know nothing about?
It’s sad how some people can be so selfish and not be willing to put themselves in another persons shoes.

This vote is mostly for show, anyway. The entire town of Fremont, Nebraska has about 1000 voters. How many illegals can there be in proportion to the legal residents? More importantly, who will flip burgers at the two McDonald’s in town? They took our jobs!

So, how SHOULD our government handle this?

Obviously the current laissez-faire unofficial “policy” that is prevalent isn’t workable.

So what should be done ?

I see both this and the AZ law proposed as basically an attempt to highlight the govts. failure to act and try to force their hand. I’m pretty sure AZ realizes that their proposal faces significant legal challenges which will likely prevail.

But I have yet to see any viable proposals for solutions. Or should the current chaos of inconsistency just continue indefinitely ?

Well, my opinion on how it SHOULD be handled is really just that, an opinion. Back in the 1940’s after the great depression, the US and Mexico made an agreement for Mexicans to be able to work legally in the US through something called the BRACERO PROGRAM. I’m not saying that we should do something exactly like this program but perhaps something similar to it would work out well. There should be a reasonable way to handle the immigration problem and trying to kick them out is not reasonable. If we do that, we’ll only be repeating history and setting ourselves up for failure again. C’mon people, can’t we all just get along?

@Buttonstc It simply isn’t true that there haven’t been viable proposals. In 2007, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act was proposed (based on previous proposals such as a bipartisan bill from John McCain and Ted Kennedy) that included increased border security, a path to citizenship (better known as amnesty) and a guest worker program. It never came up for a vote despite being supported by President Bush. Since then, the Obama administration and democratic congress have suggested tackling this issue (again), but of course, Republicans would rather grandstand (NO WAY!!!) than deal with the very pressing and real issue. Too bad our country suffers as a consequence.

Well then, no wonder certain border states have reached the end of their rope in frustration and figure that some action is preferable to none at all.

Granted, they’re kind of over the top Draconian but I’m under the impression that that’s precisely the point—to call attention to the govts failure to act.

As much as it pains me to say this, President Bush (R) was at the vanguard of this issue during his Presidency (after being a governor of a border state), as was John McCain (R). Now, any Republican who even acknowledges a willingness to discuss this issue is vilified. Moderate Republican politicians are being forced to acquiesce to more conservative forces, as the candidate for governor of California, Meg Whitman recently did. If “moderate” Republicans (just vomited a little describing Bush as “moderate”) cannot be successful in negotiating a reasonable plan, how are we ever going to find a compromise solution?

Well perhaps a few more border states need to raise a stink as well. Even at the risk of being called racists.

I see it as far more of an economic problem as medical and other services are strained to the breaking point and threatening towards bankruptcy.

I just don’t see it as racism for its own sake but far more an economic crisis.

But I’m not living in a border state (other than Canada :) so I confess to being late to the issue since it just wasn’t on the radar screen for me. But I’m guessing that’s a large part of the motivation for the actions of AZ and others: to make all Americans aware for the need to deal with this, NOT JUST those in border states.

Regarding the article that @shilolo posted. How sad that Meg Whitman is so proud to state that she plans on making it impossible for illegals to get educated. Especially because most illegals who want to get a college education have been here their entire lives. This practically is their country, minus a birth certificate that says so. I don’t know how she plans on winning the Latino vote with those kind of statements. She definitely won’t have mine.

@kheredia They shouldn’t be here in the first place. That’s what “illegal immigrant” means. Certainly, one cannot help the circumstances of his birth, but that doesn’t make it our problem.

@Nullo :: Are you familiar with our history?

“but they are not crminals,”

Hmmm, them being “illegal immigrants”. Would not the word illegal mean criminal intent at the least.

@kheredia It’s a shame that it has come to this but what you are doing is voting against someone who is upholding the laws of this country. That is a major problem with this issue. If anyone speaks out against illegal immigration on a political front they risk losing the Latino vote. This is why the feds haven’t done anything on this issue for so long and why Obama won’t touch it with a 10 foot pole. It means votes.

By your rational, if Meg Whitman had said, “you know, those bank robbers are only robbing banks because they need the money to pay their mortgages and put their kids through school. I don’t think we should go after them.” Would you be outraged. Illegal is illegal.

We have got to get a hold of this problem and secure our borders before we don’t have a country left.

To clarify….Please don’t tell me robbing banks is worse than seeking an education. Someone will have to post that my analogy is flawed. I admit it is simplistic but it still stands. We have to vote for people who will look out for the people and not for themselves. California is broke and social programs are a major reason that state had to hand out IOU’s.

Lets fix the flaw.

Bank robbers that bring cake and cookies. See… Now they are nice and it is ok to rob the bank.

@missingbite Exactly. John McCain (in his maverick days) DID speak out about it, and DID promote a compromise reform package with Ted Kennedy. That bill died in 2007, and now, up for reelection and being pummeled by forces to his right, McCain has pandered to those voices at the expense of his own convictions in order to garner votes and stay elected. Thanks for pointing that out.

@shilolo No problem. McCain is just like almost every other Progressive Politician with a desire to be re-elected. Especially after a failed run at the White House. As bad as Obama is, we may have had it worse with him. Not because of Palin. Because of HIM.

@missingbite So what do you suggest is done about the people who were brought here when they were 2 or 3 years old? You think they should just leave and start out in a country they don’t even know. Some of these people can’t even read and write in Spanish because English is what they’ve known their entire lives. It is cruel for us to deny these people an education for something that isn’t even their fault. The only reason I can think of for people not to want a comprehensive reform is selfishness.

@kheredia Comprehensive reform are key words for amnesty. The only thing that can be done now is that they apply to become citizens and wait in line just like everyone else that did it legally did. Then they will have to pay back taxes on any income they made while working as an adult.

Please explain why I or any other person in America should pay for programs that are being used by illegals. How is that fair? Life is not fair. What would happen to me if I just decided to go to Cancun illegally and live off the Mexican government?

@missingbite You are suggesting that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes and I can assure you that you are wrong. And I’m sure you probably don’t know this, but illegals who are going to college have to pay for their classes out of their own pocket because they have to register as foreign students. So don’t worry, you are not paying for their education.

@kheredia I didn’t say they didn’t pay for their education. I can assure you that the vast majority of illegal immigrants don’t pay federal income tax. They pay tax on goods but most don’t file 1099 forms.

@missingbite Sure, if you are talking about the guys who stand in front of Home Depot and work a day at a time, then yeah, they probably don’t pay taxes. But anybody else who works with a fake number has a ITIN number and they do pay taxes.

I don’t have a problem with local officials getting involved and assisting the FEDs. I think it is an excellent idea since it is obvious the FEDs are not able to handle the situation on their own.

I honestly don’t get why people are so offended about having to show that they are legally allowed to be here. As a military dependent, I have to have my military ID on me at all times and have to show it a lot. It is my proof that I am eligible to use the services on post. Maybe this makes me a little bit biased about it. I have to show my ID in order to go shopping on post, to go to the pool, to go to the doctor, to sign my son up for sports and school, and a few other things.

I don’t know a lot about how things are enforced, but perhaps each state could appoint someone to do audits of the businesses and then cite those businesses that are found to be knowingly hiring illegal immigrants. The laws are already in place, they just need to be enforced.

Well, I pay taxes. All kind of taxes and I have never received any “special” help from the government. I pay taxes when I am a consumer buying stuff, I pay taxes when I get paid. I pay taxes every year during tax season. I don’t know where people get the idea that illegals don’t pay taxes.
About being a criminal, if breaking any kind of law automatically makes you a criminal then everybody is a criminal because everybody has broken the law at one point in their lives. Come on, its not just black and white. What you are saying is that crossing the border puts you in the same category as a rapist or a murderer and that is not very logical. We all have very strong reasons to cross the border. We don’t just risk our lives for nothing.

@Seaofclouds Well I don’t have a problem with showing my ID for things like that either. What I have a problem with is having to show my ID because I look Mexican and may be in this country illegally. People who don’t look Hispanic will not have to worry about getting pulled over for some random reason when the real reason is that you look Hispanic.

You people need to stop being over for the authoritarians. Any civilian should be deeply offended about being required to show an id. That’s because your identity isn’t anybody’s business. It’s not the business of the police, the state, the DMV, the liquor store operator, or the tobacconist. And the fact that you have a certain skin color or accent doesn’t make it their business.

About Meg Whitman, I don’t understand how people can support someone who is openly lying in her campaign. We all know that she is not going to magically fix the immigration problems in California because it is a very deep, social problem that is happening in a lot of countries in the world. United States should be the first to find a humane solution for the immigration problem.

I hope so…

Reason

@The_Stranger: many so-called illegals do pay taxes. The reason is not paying taxes is about the #1 way to attract INS attention.

@kheredia I understand what you are saying and I agree that being pulled over just because of your skin color is wrong. But if you (general you) are pulled over for an actual offense, I think they should be able to check your legal status.

@bolwerk There are laws in place that require showing proof of your identity for a good reason. Liquor stores check IDs because it is illegal for them to sell liquor to people under 21. They can face fines and lose their license to sell liquor if caught selling to people under 21. (The same thing goes for stores selling tobacco.) If the police didn’t check ID when pulling someone over, how would they know they are putting the proper information on the citation they are writing? Would you want to find out you had an unpaid citation because someone gave your information instead of theirs?

@johnpowell I am familiar enough to know that this is entirely different. The Plains Indians, for instance, did not have any borders to speak of. Neither was there a central government. They effectively did not own the land.

@kheredia Yes, if it is for an actual offense then they have every right to see my identification. What I am concerned about is that some of these officers will come up with random accusations that are not even true just so they can catch illegal immigrants.

@bolwerk I am an illegal immigrant, I pay taxes with my ITIN number. And by the way, almost all my friends pay taxes that way, if we don’t pay taxes then we don’t see any of that money again. We don’t have any unemployment benefits so this is the only way to get some of our money back.

Ooops, my last comment was directed to @Seaofclouds, not myself :-)

Addendum to my last post: Near as I can tell, there were no laws preventing immigration, neither were there institutions for the enforcement of the same.

@Seaofclouds: if there’s a good reason, I’d love to hear it. That sounds like a good argument for getting rid of minimum drinking age laws to me. Actually, it also sounds like a good reason for not driving or having a driver’ license. Nothing excuses the surveillance state, and the more you can do to protect yourself from it the safer you are.

@The_Stranger: oops, sorry, I meant to type that to @missingbite in re his/her asinine claim. I don’t know how I picked your name instead.

@bolwerk You can choose not to get a driver’s license and not to drive. You can choose to not go buy liquor at a liquor store if you don’t want to be carded. No one makes you do those things. You may not think the reasons I listed are good reasons, but I do. If you are so open to not having to verify one’s identity, I’d be happy to borrow yours the next time I get pulled over for something so that I wasn’t held responsible for my own actions (because if the cop couldn’t verify my identity, I could easily say I’m someone else and that I live somewhere else and end up getting away with whatever I did wrong).

@Seaofclouds: You didn’t list any reasons. You simply listed political consequences. But why would I want my identity mis-verified anymore than I want it verified inexcusably? Both are violations of my person.

I’m not interested in liquor really, but beer or wine are essential to human health and having to show an id to get them is as silly as having to show one to buy an apple. I’m old enough now where I rarely get carded and tend to take my business elsewhere when I do (it’s not like I carry an id on a typical day), but I if you really have a problem with getting jackboots asking for your id, get a fake one. It protects you. That’s the tactic I used until my early mid-20s.

If you want to avoid getting pulled over, don’t drive. Living without a car is about the easiest thing in the world, is good for the environment, and saves you a lot of money.

@bolwerk What claim?

@bolwerk The reasons were so that liquor stores can verify the person is of legal age to buy liquor and protect themselves from fines and loosing their liquor license if caught selling to underage people (same with tobacco). Verifying a person’s identity in a crime protects other people from being accused. I can’t very well say I’m someone else when the cop is looking at my ID. Those are reasons to me. You see otherwise and that’s your right.

How is verifying your identity a violation of your person?

I moved to nebraska FROM california where I was born and raised. And from what I see when I go to the larger towns is here we go again. How amazing it is that ALL the legal folks of Nebraska arent totally flipping out! Doctors try to nip cancer in the bud before it spreads! So take it from there.

@Seaofclouds: that’s a good reason from the standpoint of the liquor store, not the standpoint of the individual attempting to make the purchase or society. It’s therefore not a good reason for the absurd policy requiring them to do it in the first place. Likewise, I wasn’t speaking in the the context of crime or even civil violations (e.g., parking tickets). I was speaking in the context of legal or should-be legal activity, like walking on the sidewalk while brown or drinking while age 18 (or 15 or 16 or 17 really).

It’s a violation of person because a person’s identity has never, ever been the business of the state, particularly a fascistic surveillance society as is typically found in the American South and Southwest.

I can at least understand a state’s interest in stopping moving violations. But if the state really has business dealing with moving violations, nothing stops it from attaching the violation to the vehicle – which is harder to hide than a person anyway.

I think that the citizens of Fremont NE are following the lead of Arizona and I think that they have a right to do so. If you’re in this country illegally, you’re committing a crime. And if employers are grossly violating labor laws, they should be penalized. This law takes away the incentive for employers to hire illegal immigrants and it takes away the incentive for illegal immigrants to move to their city and to work in their city. With a high unemployment rate in this country and state and local governments faced with increasing debt, I see a decreased need for immigration; especially illegal immigration.

I’m still trying to understand the incentive that the govenement has in not keeping our borders secure and not curtailing illegal immigration and not enforcing the laws to curtail illegal immigration. I have asked my U.S. Represtentative Dennis Moore (D) and my U.S Senator Sam Brownback® of Kansas these same questions and I’m stilling waiting for a reply. What is their politcial gain from the status quo?

At this point, I’m not advocating a vast deportation of every illegal immigrant. I would just like to see the borders secured. I’d prefer to have soldiers, satellites and drones gaurding our borders than cameras and satellites watching every street, parking lot and home in this country. After all, if we can spend billions of dollars backing a corrupt government in Afghanistan, securing the borders between Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan can’t we spend a samll percentage of these resources to secure our own borders?

It does appear that there has been an intentional lack of will by our government (both major political parties) to secure our borders and to curtail illegal immigration. And it appears that they would rather spend tax payers dollars to litigate the legality of these laws than to hault illegal immigration.

Woudn’t it make more sense to secure the borders and to develop a policy of controlled legal immigration that leads to documented workers, legal residency and citizenship? I would think the latter policy would reduce the burdern on state and local govenments, meet our labor demands (if there is any) and make the immigrant who migrate to this country less proned to be victimized by employers due to their illegal status. It would also facilitate assimilation. The latter policy would be a win-win situation.

I can only surmise that there is political and economic gain for some to be had by this current lack of willingness to stop the flow of illegal immigration and the political, social and economic chaos that it creates. The average citizen and tax payer and the illegal immigrants are all victims. Perhaps its a policy of creating soical and economic division and conquer/rule.

@legalnkc: Crime, schmime. If you make things illegal you make a crime up. The solution is to stop banning things. If illegal immigration is so harmful, fine the employers who hire the illegals and the immigration will stop. Mean-spirited police state tactics waste time and solve no problems. As for your fappery about “soldiers, satellites and drones gaurding our borders,” it sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

And yeah, there is a political and economic gain to having illegal immigrants. Two, in fact. The first is it creates a near-slave class of poor people who don’t know their rights for unscrupulous capitalists to exploit. Secondly it provides a lot of federal welfare jobs (without the stigma of anyone having to admit it’s really all about welfare) for jackbooted thugs to “investigate,” prosecute, and prison-guard the self-made “crime.”

Illegal immigrants in TX get to pay in-state tuition and they have for years. This article states that several other states do it too. Yes, they get an education cheaper than, say, a kid from Louisiana who wants to attend University of Texas. It also appears that some states do grant financial aid to the “undocumented.”

http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/financial-aid/undocumented-students

The nerve of those nefarious migrants! Trying to get an education to better themselves! And their children too! Awful!

@bolwerk No, the nerve of them breaking our laws and expecting us to allow it.

Our laws? Keep me out out of your authoritarian we. I’m all for them breaking your laws. I have no respect for them either.

@bolwerk thanks for clarifying where you stand. I don’t respect anyone who doesn’t respect other countries laws. You made it easy for me to ignore your future posts.

@missingbite: Who said anything about other countries (or any countries)? And why would I feel the need to earn the respect of someone with such a chauvinist attitude towards other human beings?

The vote is in and 57% of the votes passed the ordinance. Fremont, Nebraska is not a border town and makes for an interesting situation with the illegals in their town and taking the legal citizens there, jobs. will other cities and towns vote in the same laws and Fremont and New Mexico? since the Federal government in not enforcing the immigration laws, this may be the only answer for legal citizens to oust illegal immigrants.

Mritty: you took the words right out of my mouth. for some reason, people are just overlooking the fact that the illegals are criminals. this comes first, everthing else comes second. good answer.

@john65pennington That is exactly what I have been trying to say. It’s not that I have no heart for people, I just can’t stand the fact that they are breaking the law and nobody does anything. Great post.

Oh, no, not the precious, precious law! Anything but that! It’s the most important thing evah! If we don’t follow the law, Obama will cry!

@john65pennington: actually, what is being overlooked is how stupid it is that “illegals” (the term is even chauvinist) are criminalized in the first place. Even if you think they shouldn’t be here, it’s fundamentally a stupid thing to criminalize.

Some suggest that by creating a immigration laws, then criminals are created. They also suggest that the capitalists are exploiting them. Let’s take that to its illogical extreme!

Under that supposition, we can do anything to migrants to this country without reprocussions. After all, they advoting therer should be no laws.

Illegal immigrants knowingly come to this country realizing they are breaking the law. They weren’t dropped by storks!

And yes, there are capitalist who exploit the illegal immigrants. But, then what does that do to the argument that the illegal immigrants only want to improve their lives? If they don’t want to be exploited by the U.S. capitalist, perhaps they should stay home. Let them eat cake! But, not off of my china!

There are those illegal immigrants who believe that parts of this country belong to them because it was taken from their ancestors. Do you want to relinguish it to them? After all, a vast majority of us are descendents of immigrants who settled on land that was taken from someone else. How far should we take this argument?

@legalnkc: you really need to work on your illogic. Yes, they come regardless of the law – just as the law exists regardless of whether or not it’s intelligent, rational, or even basically humane. Whether they come knowingly or unknowingly is a supposition, and an irrelevant one.

The only relevant point is they’re given incentive to come – by the very same people who stir morons into a frenzy about their presence. Now, if you really think they shouldn’t come, you have no credibility if you’re just going to dispense moral sanctimony about law breaking like authoritarians such as @missingbite have been doing. That’s been going on for generations, and it has so far failed to yield results. Likewise, if you’re going to advocate the state’s right to dispense laws, you need to at least find a way to make the state’s laws rational.

If you want them to not come, the only way to guarantee (okay, guarantee is a strong word, but the number that comes could probably be reduced to a trickle) it is to study the incentives that make them come and eliminate them. Wasting billions of dollars on walls, gun-toting thugs, and other red state welfare will not solve the problem.

The obvious solution is giving them an unusually high minimum wage and taxing employers who employ them (the reason they come in the first place, if that’s not obvious) a shitload more they would be taxed for hiring a “legal” to do the same job. Why the higher minimum wage? Because it would give the “illegal” workers an incentive to report employees who don’t pay them that minimum wage, thereby creating a self-enforcing system.

Now, you ask, it’s so simple, why hasn’t it been tried before? Probably because of the first point: low-level manufacturers clearly enjoy the cheap labor, and will complain if they’re cut off from it (actually, that’s not even a supposition). Besides that, it’s probably also because small-dicked authoritarians like neo-cons like the idea of having defenseless people around to bully, but yes, that’s a supposition. And maybe, the biggest political obstacle is people will bitch that “illegals” are getting a higher minimum wage than upstanding white racists – even if those “illegals” aren’t benefiting from that wage.

@MrItty yes they are criminals but also african-americans that run away from their owners in the old days were also criminals, we can’t compare BP executives with mexican gardeners, i don’t want to angry anybody i respect whatever people thinks OK? :)

@legalnkc I want to comment on your question about illegals wanting to better themselves. You are right about them being exploited here in the US and although you may not understand this, even though they are being exploited they are still in a better position here in the US than they would be in their home land. Nobody wants to leave their country unless their country is a shit whole. If they made the decision to risk their lives crossing the border then there had to be a very strong reason for it. You will probably never fully understand that because you live in a rich country where things can only get so bad before they start getting better again. Just think about it, if the illegals are willing to tolerate all the hate and the discrimination they suffer in this country, it is probably because even with all that they have a better life in the US than they would in their own country.

@kheredia – That is why we have immigration laws and policies. So people can come into this country LEGALLY and with some form of organization. So they can have a better life. People come to this country for better opportunity, life and to avoid tyranny.

If we don’t control the flow of immigration. We (Americans) will be doing nothing more then affording the less fortunate of the world a better life. Buy pulling us down to the point that we wont be able help them or ourselves.

It sucks… What is going on in other countries. But just like here at home. We donate to charities. But if we donate more then we can afford we loose our ability to afford the life that allows us to give.

You might be able to afford a dinner party for 6 people. How about 50 people day in and day out. Nothing wrong with feeding your friends. Until you can devise a system and financial strategy to feed those 50. You will have to keep your kitchen closed. Because unlike a dinner party. These people just show up at your door.

@ChazMaz You explained it better than I ever could have. Thank you!

To add: Not only the number and cost, an unsecured border lets anybody across. Some of the illegals crossing the border do so to commit crime. Drug dealers, human traffickers, terrorists, ect.

I don’t think many, if anybody wants to stop people from bettering themselves, we just can’t keep letting them do it at the cost of our Country. Like @ChazMaz, we can only have so many at the dinner party.

@ChazMaz yes there are legal ways to come to this country, that sounds so great and easy I wonder why nobody is doing it that way! BTW, I was being sarcastic

@Ludy As one who once did the immigrant thing himself, I can tell you that it’s quite a hassle. But just like DRM snobbery does not justify piracy, complicated immigration procedures do not justify border-hopping.
Sarcasm loses a lot of punch if you follow it up with “btw I was being sarcastic.” Ideally, you will write your post in such a way that your sarcasm is made clear by context and word choice. If you can’t make that work, we’ve sort of unofficially come to use the tilde to indicate sarcasm when it might not be readily apparent.

Not every body has the means or the money to go through the process to come in legally. That’s why they come here to work. If they had money in their own country they would have no reason to come to the US.

@kheredia We prosecute people who steal food and medicine, too.
Anyway, how are Mexico’s money woes our fault?

I just wish american people would be a little more understanding, not saying nobody is, just in general, what if it was the other way around, how would they like to be treated? Sometimes or most of the time illegal immigrants live in the shadows, not living but just surviving, they appreciate being here so much that having something to eat and a roof on their heads is A luxury, they don’t even want to compare or dream they could live like a white american person, they don’t want to be lawyers, doctors, governors,... they get treated as second class humans, they’re used to get humiliated, they live in constant fear; that is already a punishment, now imagine how they must feel if besides all that you live in arizona or Nebraska??? I’m just so sad for them, all of them not onl the latino ones, and I don’t expect anybody here to agree w/ me, just want you to know it.
America has every right to defend themselves, but not just because something is the law means is the kind and right way to treat other human being like that. I love America, and hope God keeps blessing this country even more so americans could keep being a blessing to the less fortunate, :)

@Ludy While this may come as a shock to some that read my posts, I doubt any of us who are against illegal immigration would disagree with your feelings toward the people…as long as they are not committing more crimes once here. Our biggest beef in the whole debate is that they are here illegally and we can’t afford it. We have got to come up with a way to close the border. Our states are going bankrupt and out healthcare costs will skyrocket soon. Even more than they already are.

Some of the illegals are here to commit more crimes which not only cost taxpayers money but in some cases cost us lives. I and others are fully aware that….most….of the illegal immigrants are here just looking for a better life. All of our families did this at some point. The difference is they did it legally.

Now some people on Fluther openly have no respect for the law and say it is stupid. If that is the case, I would suggest they run for office and change the law. Somehow I doubt they will. Some people want open boarders for some unbelievable reason. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it. I happen to disagree. I believe open borders would lead to a massive influx of people that we can’t confirm are not here for good reasons. We have a hard enough time with the ones that are here on student visas now.

Anyway, I want you to know that some of us do feel bad for the illegal immigrants. I wish their governments weren’t so corrupt they feel the need to leave their homeland to make a living. But it is what it is.

There is absolutely no proof that illegals are a financial drain rather than a boon. Yes, illegals use up resources like health care and education. On the other hand, many pay taxes and importantly, by contributing cheap labor, lower the costs of many products that would otherwise be more expensive. It is not easily quantified, but there is a very real chance that illegals are an economic wash.

@shilolo You are correct that it is very difficult to prove. I believe as many do that it is a net loss. The majority of illegal immigrants are under educated and not paying taxes. A lot of the illegal immigrants send some of the money they make back home which is US money leaving the country. Add to that the traffic accidents, health care, infrastructure, lost jobs of Americans, added police costs,...and I believe it is a net loss. Cities with the most illegal immigrants have higher unemployment, higher number of people living in poverty, and higher serious crime rates.

The costs will simply outweigh the benefits of some paying taxes and cheap labor. If they were a wash economically, the debate over illegal immigration would not be as hot of a topic.

I’m not sure I agree. As this article (and I can find many others, including primary sources from economic journals) illustrates, the overall economic impact is likely to be a wash. Now, some might argue over the affects of illegal immigration on our law-and-order society, but that is a far different issue.

“There is absolutely no proof that illegals are a financial drain rather than a boon.”

Not true. Here is the link again. WATCH.

This goes on in Hospitals all over the country. This is one example.

@shilolo Your article has more to do with wages and less to do with the cost of illegal immigration on cities and states. It’s also from 2006 so the data is older than that. I read the article and didn’t see anything taking into consideration the increased police, health care, or infrastructure costs. I just don’t agree. But that is the great thing about debate. If we all agreed just think how boring life would be.

@ChazMaz I work full time in hospitals, including several caring directly for indigent patients. I know what goes on. I also know that most illegals are hard working individuals seeking a better life, and typically only come to the hospital when they are nearing death’s door (usually for fear of being caught or losing their source of income by being out of work).

@missingbite Also, for all the increased police, health care or infrastructure, there are jobs created. Just as the illegal drug trade creates an entire economy to enact the “War on Drugs” (DEA, police, DAs, judges, clerks, prisons, guards, etc. etc.), illegal immigrants using services would, by definition, create more need. Now, you could argue that they are putting a strain on the system, but in truth (and to use health care as a primary example), they represent a very small percentage of the total population of the USA (~5%). For health care, the greatest problem is a meteoric rise in costs to treat primarily elderly patients with multiple medical problems. It is estimated that 90% of a person’s total lifetime health care utilization is in the last year of her life! Imagine if that were curtailed, how much money would be saved.

@shilolo I agree that hiring more police and the like create jobs. Unfortunately those jobs (read police) are not free market jobs. They are paid for by taxpayers. So unless all illegal immigrants are paying taxes that portion will be a net loss. Anytime you have an influx of lower wage earners and you have to increase more services, you will have a net loss.

Again, like you said this is very difficult to show or prove. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

As for the health care part of your post, I agree that the most expensive portion of a persons costs are the last few years. I hope and pray that our new health care bill doesn’t end up costing the elderly in time over money. I have no proof that it will but I’m afraid it could lead to that. Some people will say it won’t but some people said Social Security would never be bankrupt.

@missingbite If your police job depending on the existence of a need (i.e. illegals or drug trade), you might think differently (plus, as has been discussed above, many illegals DO pay taxes). Moreover, those low wage earners also bring down the costs of many items, so your hand-picked strawberries are a fraction of the cost if the pickers were unionized Americans getting minimum wage and benefits (as an example). Thus, more money in your (taxpaying) pocket for other goods.

Moving to the tangent, not to be callous, but at some point, we will reach a “tipping point” where we will HAVE TO curtail spending by decreasing the amount spent on the elderly (and decreasing their “time”). As an example, it is the height of lunacy to place pacemakers and do heart bypass surgeries on 90 year old individuals (though this happens all the time), when many people in their 20s to 50s don’t have or cannot afford health care. Nonetheless, those expensive procedures are done on very old and frail patients, in addition to heroic lifesaving measures that require weeks to months of ICU care (which ends up costing millions of dollars), often to no benefit. Indeed, this is paid for by Medicare (and private insurance), even though it is nearly futile. You’ll likely view this as rationing, and it is to an extent, but our current situation is not sustainable. We cannot introduce new, expensive procedures, perform them on everyone without concern for whether it will prolong meaningful life, and then expect to be cost neutral. Many countries with lower costs than the US (but better outcomes) practice this sort of rationing to great effect (such as not permitting expensive dialysis past a certain age, etc.) This might strike people as morally wrong, but society is often faced with difficult decisions about life and death, and this is no different.

@shilolo I appreciate your honesty about the health care debate. I am fully aware that the current health care bill is aiming at rationing even though our President won’t say it.

You ask, if my police job depended on a need like illegals or drug trade I may feel different. I may. But I doubt it. I would ask you the same. How will you feel at whatever age the government decides you are no longer worth saving and you are left to die?

I see a common theme here. I do not know why people can’t connect the dots.

No one wants to deny them citizen ship. No one is denying that most are generally good people.

The key word here is illegals. The are accessing our country and getting access to opportunities and benefits. On our dime. Intended for American Citizens.
Join the club, become a member and enjoy all the privileges that come with membership.

If they are nice and they are good and they are hard working. It is ok for them to just walk in the door and take what they want because of that?

One more thing.

It is a drag that some members, without notifying the rest of the club. Used/uses non members to do their dirty work. Paying them with membership dues.

I’m trying to undrstand the argument made that “the illegal immigrant has been given an incentive to illegally immigrate to this country. Therefore, we shouldn’t blame them for doing so. I suppose it also follows that we shouldn’t consider them criminals because they had an incentive to illegally migrate here.

Now that certainly leaves the floodgates open for anarchy. When housing prices declined, I was given the incentive to walk away from my mortgage. So, it should be okay for me to do so. I can’t raise my family on minimum wage, so I have an incentive to sell illegal drugs to your children and your neighbors. If I’m given an incentive, it must be all right to do so. I can’t get a decent job in the United States unless I have documentation. Therefore, it must be understandable that I might need to steal your identity because I have an incentive to do so. Under this premise nearly anyone can justify almost any behavior. My standard of living would be better if I could obtain govenment benefits (food stamps, AID to dependent children, Medicaid, public education), but I can’t do it unless I have adequate documentation. Therefore, I have an incentive. It must be okay for me to illegal take someones identification.

Perhaps an employer is providing an incentive for a laborer to illegally migrate to this country by hiring the illegal and undocumented immigrant. But, that doesn’t justify the action of the employer or the illegal immigrant. Both of them are breaking the law even though both of them have an incentive to do so. That is why many U.S. citizens are pleading with the government to secure the borders, impede illegal immigration, and stop businesses from hiring illegal immigrants and to verify that their employees are legally documented workers or U.S. citizens.

But, it appears that the government has had and is getting political gain from not securing the borders and enfrocing current immigrtation laws. They have simply chosen not to do anything about these issues.

I don’t blame the immigrant for wanting to migrate to the this country to improve their standard of living. And I believe that most illegal immigrants only want to improve their life chances. I don’t blame the employer for paying the cheapest wage possible. But, if they break the law they should be held accountable and not rewarded with social welfare benefits, driver’s licenses, free health care, education and etc.

The goverment can secure the boarder and they can also improve the procedures that will facilitate orderly and faster guest worker programs, tempory visas, legal residency, and citizenship. They can even make the process less costly for the legal immigrant applicant. They can also have the employer share in the cost of temporary work visas.

But, having an incentive is not justification for entering the country illegally.

@legalnkc Nobody is saying that illegal immigration is okay. I, like you, believe that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be fixed. What I don’t agree with is the belief that sending all the illegals back to their country is going to fix the problem. Yes, securing our borders is necessary but there has to be a plan for what will come next for the illegals that are in the U.S already. Like I said before, there are illegals that have been here since they were children and they consider the U.S. their country despite what some may say. I have friends who are here illegally and have dreams of becoming doctors and teachers but they can’t because some people don’t consider them worthy of an education in the U.S. Despite what some people think, the US needs labor workers and illegals are the only ones willing to work for that kind of salary. The problem is that some people somehow think they can do without illegals when in fact our history has already proved them wrong when the Americans attempted this back in the 1930’s and then ended up having a huge shortage of labor workers.
I am all for securing our borders as long as there is a fair immigration reform for those who have paid their taxes and have not committed any crimes in the U.S (other than crossing the border of course). The rest of them can all be sent back for all I care.

I just can’t see where we can have comprehensive immigration reform until the borders are secure. You can create an immigration policy when the borders are essentially unenforced. What would be the point if the border issue isn’t under control. And frankly we gave amnesty to illegal immigrants in recent history without securing the borders. So, what would be the point?

Many, many people are angry in this country because we can’t trust the government to resolve this problem. And many of them like myself are getting angrier about the issue and the resentment is growing and will continue to grow.

Let me speak candidly about my own feelings and experiences. I hired a contractor to remodel my kitchen. He dropped off several workers at my home and was seldom there after he received the first payment. I did not know if the workers were illegal or not. But, I had my suspicions since one could barely speak English. I should have inquired. But, I was trying to be objective and they were on his payroll; not mine. But, I heard them have a discussion about how they were going to take over someday. Who “they” were, was up to interpretation. Then, the contractor called to say that he could not be there one day to pay them and asked if I would do so. I told him that I would not pay cash. But, I would give them a check. They then said they could not cash the check because they had no ID. Later, I learned that they had no drivers licenses or soical security number. That was not my issue. It was a check or nothing (I also have an email from the contractor verifying that I would make a payment by check on his behalf and the amount). I refused to do it again. Then they quit showing up to complete the job. The contractor said that they thought the police were at my home. How and why they came to that conclusion is up to interpretation, too.

At that point I was extremely angry with the contractor more than I was with his crew. He was such a scammer. I want that contractor investigated and charged for hiring illegal immigrants if they were in deed illegal. I susect his crew were illegal and were only trying to make a living. But, if they were illegal, they need to be deported and the contractor locked up.

And about two years ago we had a national march in this country by illegal immigrants demanding their rights. They were carrying the flags of their own country and they appeared to be very well organized. I was angry to see illegal immigrants marching in our streets, putting their demands upon the people of the U.S.A., carrying the flags of their native countries and shouting for their rights. It looked like and invasion and I think it is no less than an orgainized invasion. They decided to exert some political muscle and they are now seeing a response to their action.

And let one be pragmatic. Why shouldn’t the citizens of this country not respond in a concerted political movement against these same illegal immigrants? Why shouldn’t U.S citizens organize to secure their own political, economic and social power? The pissing contest has begun. And perosnally, I think it is nearly treasonous for political leaders in this country not to secure the borders. I suspect their motivation for inaction is due to their own polical gain. It’s nearly treasonous. Why should I give up any of my poltical clout? This is no longer an just an issue of illegal immigration. This is a struggle for sustaining politcial and ecomomic power. I think it’s time to forget about civility, take off the gloves and let the politcial fight begin.

It’s sad to see this issue progress to this state. But, that’s the consequence of uncontrolled illegal immigration. And for those Hegelians out there. We’ve experienced the thesis. We are now experiencing the antithesis. What the synthesis will be is yet to be determined.

If Los Angeles, San Diego, and other American cities want to flex their political and economic muscle by boycotting Arizona or any other U.S. municial and state governments, then I would say that it’s totally reasonable to boycott these cities or the entire state of California. They are in such economic peril, it wouldn’t take much to shove them over the precipice and their political leaders with them.

It’s not a pleasant to experience or to acknowdege that one feels this way. But, it’s time to appy some resistance. You woudn’t let someone tresspass into your home without consequences and you certainly wouldn’t let them remain there. After a peroid the extended period of time and the scale that it’s occurring, we shouldn’t permit it to occur to our country either. U.S citizens are struggling with the consequences of international free trade, job outsourcing and now high unemployment. It’s time to hold our govenment accountable for illegal immigration and it’s consequences.

Perhpas we can stop illegal immigrants claiming to be victimized by what they claim are unfair immigration law by educating them before they come to U.S. illegally that they risk being arrested, they could lose personal property that they accumulate in this country, and that it could have a negative impact upon rellationships thta they create while here.

@legalnkc I’m curious, did you report that contractor to anyone? If not, why not?

I’m going to assume you hired this contractor because he offered the lowest bid? Have or did you stop to wonder why? If you were a (somewhat) willing accomplice to this event, why, as a patriotic American did you not then hire a contractor that used only American workers? Is it because the cost would have been much higher? In that case, you are being overtly hypocritical.

Before I answer, I am going to state my opinion on the Arizona law: I call it flat out racial profiling which I resoundingly condemn. If you wish to know why I consider it such, read here for the short version. I do not know enough about the Nebraska law to know if it is going to turn into that.

Ok, on to your question. None of these new laws are going to work. True reform is required. Yes, these laws are going to drive the illegals out of wherever they are passed. They are going to redistribute the illegal population. It will probably succeed in removing some of the illegals from this city, however, there are employers who will be quite willing to break the law.

I wish to point something out. While I fully understand the “they are breaking the law, my ancestors came here legally, so can they,” I know that it is not quite that simple. I have had friends who were illegal and were fighting to become legal. The government has tossed more hurdles in their way than most know about. One of them is that they have to cross the border illegally in order to proceed via legal means. If they are caught, they face deportation. Paperwork is lost. Etc., et al.

I also know how hard it can be to immigrate to this nation even if you are, egads, white. I know someone who was trying to immigrate from Britain and just gave up. Luckily, she was not starving or in other dire straights like those coming from Mexico.

Not all illegal immigrants are Mexican/Hispanic. Not all are “brown.” There are plenty of * gasp* white illegal immigrants. However, the “brown” ones are the ones being targeted. By focusing on the popular perception of “illegal,” white illegals easily fly under the radar.

As I said, bandaids are not going to help. Reform is the only thing that will work. Personally, I am for some sort of grandfather clause that would allow law abiding, working illegals currently in the States to obtain legal status and to deport any illegal engaged in criminal (other than crossing the border illegally) behaviour, including just being in a gang. Of course, I wish we could toss all gang members out of this nation no matter whether or not they are citizens.

One thing I wish to say. I was watching a television show last night, and it pointed out that gangs will often target illegals for extortion and other crimes, because illegals will not report them due to fear of being deported.

Gangs also recruit illegal immigrants. There are gangs, in fact, that are exclusively so. If we did something about them, it would hurt the gangs.

Another point I wish to make, a strong one, in fact. Illegal immigrants are NOT all Mexican. If we are going to deal with illegal immigrants, we need to deal with them all.

Err, I stated this poorly:

”As I said, bandaids are not going to help. Reform is the only thing that will work. Personally, I am for some sort of grandfather clause that would allow law abiding, working illegals currently in the States to obtain legal status”

I meant illegals who do not break any laws other than simply being here illegally.

@Arisztid I read your post from the link above. I believe you are calling a law racial profiling because of a societal issue. If you read the law, it strictly prohibits law enforcement from racial profiling so by definition, it isn’t. Let’s use a hypothetical situation to ask a question.

An Arizona police officer pulls over a car for speeding with three children in the car. Two of the kids are not properly in car seats. Once pulled over the officer asks to see identification. The driver explains that he/she does not have an ID on them. So the officer asks for the drivers name and address. Now the officer has an address and name and finds out that the driver doesn’t have a license. (another crime) Now, not knowing if this person is here legally or illegally, what should the officer do? Should he give the person a ticket and let them go? Arrest them? BTW, in this situation, the illegal is from the UK.

My point is, the law is written so that the person in question has to be violating a law besides just being here. I agree we shouldn’t be racially profiling. But once we know they are here illegally, why should we just let them go?

@missingbite The law is meant to target a behaviour. That is not racial profiling. The problem is that, from what I have heard, in application that is not how it is working out. From what I have heard, the law has its eyes focused first on appearance. If you were to ask “what does an illegal look like,” I would bet that the majority of respondents would describe someone who looks Hispanic and speaks Spanish. If I was a white illegal, I would be quite relieved that the enforcement of the law is not focusing primarily on me.

Would you have a link to the instance you describe regarding the illegal from the UK?

@Arisztid I don’t have a link because it was a hypothetical situation that I made up. I explained that above. Do you have references that show the police are targeting hispanics? Or is it just hear say? You stated that you have heard that in application the law is not working as it was designed. Did you know that the law doesn’t go into affect until July 27th. I’m not sure what you have heard but AZ isn’t even using the law for another month so I don’t see how it isn’t working out.

If the majority of respondents describe a Hispanic or Spanish speaking person as a description of illegal, I would bet it would be because that is all you see on the news these days. It still shouldn’t have an affect on the way the law in AZ is enforced.

@missingbite I will concede the point for now because I do not have any links. Most of what I have read is from blogs and how the attitude surrounding Hispanics has changed since the law was passed, such as things changing on college campuses.

I shall do some looking for harder evidence and post it if I find it.

The problem is that the perception of an illegal is held by the populace. The police are part of the populace. If they do not ask everyone they stop for proof of citizenship, that is profiling. If they stop more people who look like the popular perception of illegals for the same thing as a white person, that is profiling.

I am going to be looking for stories on both sides of this from my hypothesis to yours.

@Arisztid Have you ever been stopped for a traffic violation and not been asked for Drivers License. If the driver has one, no more questions. That is how the law is written. No reason to suspect a person is illegal. If I get pulled over and don’t have a license, their will be further questioning by the police. I think that is fair.

“a national march in this country by illegal immigrants”
Would that not be considered an invasion? How is that even allowed?
If we decided to enter a country without the proper credentials in large numbers, that is exactly what it would be seen as.
Being greeted by an apposing military force.

@missingbite Tell me, if you can, how you can guarantee that the police are not stopping you for a minor infraction, as a Hispanic, that they would not have let a Caucasian pass with. My point is, there is no way to keep this from being racial profiling, given human nature. None.

The U.S is in no place to be talking about invasions considering that’s what we do best.

Well, lets cut to the chase. Plenty of nice fluffy reasons as to why they are here.
But 30,000 undocumented people in the country. Is exactly what it is.

black people had a march too, some of them were illegal too

@Keysha A minor infraction is an infraction. Are you telling me that Hispanic or black officers are more likely to pull over a caucasian? Or is it just white officers that are racial profiling? What are all the hispanic officers going to do?

@missingbite I did not differentiate between ethnicities for the police. I said that Hispanics would be targeted for minor infractions more often than Caucasians, and that is profiling. Things like jaywalking and such.

Speaking of criminals, then the sex offenders, rapist, murders, car thieves, bank robbers any criminal that has already been processed should be forced to carry a form of identification, but then again, what happens to all those who have been given a a sentence for a crime that they did not commit, I know lets do DNA on every one that is brought in for processing, that will narrow down all the criminals and their crimes. Hmmm…seems like many of you are using your feelings to answer when we need to help each other to solve this vast dilemna. Like it was mentioned above by @missingbite ”As I said, bandaids are not going to help. Reform is the only thing that will work. Personally, I am for some sort of grandfather clause that would allow law abiding, working illegals currently in the States to obtain legal status”. And how many of you can say that their is no one here that absolutely ties to a family member that has immigrated here from some other country, like Cuba, The Virgin Islands, China, Japan, Germay, Africa and so on.

@Keysha I am aware that you didn’t. I brought it up to show that people who are accusing police of racial profiling are do exactly what they don’t want done. There are hundreds of Hispanic police officers in AZ. To make a statement that police will start racial profiling is suggesting that ALL POLICE officers will do that. I am asking what the Hispanic officers are going to do. You and others are accusing the law of leading to racial profiling and are profiling all police officers as racists.

Again. Jaywalking is a crime. If police start picking out just Hispanics that jaywalk we will have a problem. It will be easily confirmed if an officer pulls over and tickets just Hispanics. Or just blacks. Or just any…fill in the blank.

My point being, that not only Hispanics can be illegal immigrants. They come in all colors, so everyone that is stopped, regardless of if they ‘appear to be illegal’ or not, should be checked. That phrase, or however it is written, opens the door to profiling. And the police can ticket several people, but may not ask all of them for proof of citizenship. There is where the line becomes drawn.

@Keysha If they ticket a person, they checked the persons ID, which means they probably also checked their citizenship (considering you are suppose to be here legally in order to have an ID). It’s the people that don’t have a valid ID that are going to need to prove their citizenship.

@missingbite: you really need to learn the law a bit better. Jaywalking is not a crime – well, not in any civilized place anyway. It’s a civil infraction.

Anyway, if a pig stops you in AZ or anywhere, make sure you make them state the reason and whether they’re stopping you on the basis of reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Look up your legal rights based on whether it’s RS or PC. Those legal rights will vary, probably slightly but significantly, from state to state. You may or may not be required to identify yourself, however the pig will almost certainly have the “right” to frisk you.

@bolwerk Most people who get ticketed for jaywalking won’t know or care about the difference. I’m aware of the difference and I’m sure some others on Fluther do also. For simplicity, it’s easy to type crime.

Your lack of respect for people and general smugness tells me the exact type of person you are. I Hope you never meet a “pig” that feels the way you do about them. If you do, I would bet they would still help you in a jam although your disrespect for them tells me they shouldn’t. Good luck in life and feel free to ignore anything I have to say on Fluther.

@missingbite: I have lots of respect for “people,” which is what motivated me to comment in the first place. I have less respect for your smugness, authoritarianism, sanctimony, and condescending attitude. It’s disrespect for people that causes authoritarian thugs like you to favor the law and order over the actual needs of harmless weak and downtrodden people.

And, in case anyone missed it, I didn’t say all cops are “pigs” – I know and respect some cops. Rarely agree with them, but I don’t despise them. Regardless, many cops are abusive, abusive cops are pigs, and there’s nothing morally wrong with knowing your rights and possibly using force to defend yourself from them when necessary.

@Ludy /=/We did get here for learning, right? So since you don’t know me and I don’t know you well enough, first off I wanted to tell you that I am not at all angry or disappointed in you writting your level of frustration. Just have a dictionary handy and get up-dated quickly how other’s use the words and since we are here to learn and teach, you can ask whomever what it is that you want clarification on. I understand that this the place to learn and not get the finger pointed at. :-) I hope that this helps.