What is your opinion about using medical knowledge obtained in atrocities such as the WWII Holocaust?

Of course we can’t condone what happened, but knowledge is knowledge, no matter how come by.

How many deaths could be prevented using the information they gained, and how many lost if we are forced to “reinvent the wheel” by waiting for someone to discover the same information by more mundane means?

Great question. Coincidentally I was just thinking about this last night. This answer sucks, but I just can’t decide. I just can’t.

Once the knowledge was obtained, it does not make sense not to use it, but as you say that does not justify the acts that obtained it.

I agree with @Seek_Kolinahr. We should do everything we can to prevent such war crimes from occurring. But if the knowledge exists, we should use it to improve human life now.

My understanding was that most of Mengele’s experiments were scientifically useless to begin with, based more on torture or propaganda than on actual exploratory research. I’m not sure we get anything out of knowing how long it takes to mortally wound someone using X technique.

So, if a torturous ‘experiment’ used the accepted scientific method as its basis, then maybe we should take a look and try to replicate the results (in a more humane way). But if not, please let’s don’t bother.

@Seek_Kolinahr, @marinelife, and @HungryGuy… Exactly. If I was one of my family members who had died on Mengele’s tables and my death had produced knowledge that would save others, I would be annoyed if this knowledge was discarded.

@cockswain No worries and thankyou for answering. It is a difficult and a bit odd thing to think about. I do because of my family history.

@marinelife To me, not using it is disrespectful. But then, I am first an organ donor and have arranged to have my body sent to the University of Michigan after my passing for whatever use they have for me in their medical college.

@Mamradpivo The only useful things I can remember offhand from Mengele’s “experiments” were the effects of decompression and how best to recover from hypothermia. Mengele’s “work” was pure sadism and any medical/physiological knowledge gleaned from it was purely accidental.

I agree that the ends do not justify the means, however, if such atrocities produce something that can be used as a base for safe scientific examination, I think that this should be allowed.

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This is a debate I have gotten in since the 80’s when I learned that there was a religious outcry at the thought of using this material.

I don’t even see how it can be discarded or ignored? Once we learn something we cannot unlearn it. Do you mean there was an outcry to have all scientific documents burned and never examined? That the knowledge would simply dissappear?

@JLeslie Here is an article about this issue:

“The big issue was that there was a public feeling of researchers who used the data which was gleaned from these torturous experiments being ‘tainted’”.

“After all, if they are willing to use it, they must condone the way it was obtained.”
Jewish Law Articles: The Ethics Of Using Medical Data From Nazi Experiments

This article goes into the issue in depth and is quite interesting.

Knowledge is knowledge, it’s not good or evil by itself. Yes, the ways that knowledge was obtained is bad. Then I see your post from the Jewish Law Articles, and I’m only going to get myself in trouble if I respond the rest of the way.

I’m with @Mamradpivo on this one. The validity of the knowledge is questionable if accepted scientific methods were not used. If a scientist wanted to use information from those atrocities and have the applications of the knowledge find acceptance, he or she would have to go through a process of rediscovering that same information through methods that can be reproduced in a humane way.

Well, I grew up knowing some of the horrific things the nazis did, so I don’t think reading the documents again for possible scientific discovery is necessarily to be forbidden. But, I do understand the feelings of the people themselves who lived through it, family members, people in general who might be against it.

This gave me new insight to a question I asked a long time ago. I had asked the people who are against ebryonic cell research if they would use a cure if one was discovered, even though they are against the research and methods. An overwhelming number of people said yes without hesitation. I found it hypocritical at the time. I think it is not perfectly analagous, since no one is saying to replicate the experiments of the Nazi’s, but still interesting.

I do agree with @MissAusten and @Mamradpivo though. If the expirements were not done in a scientific way, then it will not be accepted as fact or science.

@Adirondackwannabe Agreed 100%. I disagree with the article. It is interesting to see the extent to which this knowledge is suppressed. I understand the objection, however, I disagree with it. As I said, I feel that, if some good came out of the slaughter of my family and people, I want that good to be used. That way their deaths would not be wholly in vain.

@MissAusten The accuracy of the knowledge is definitely in question, however, I believe that it should not be tossed. In no way should it be researched further in a manner in any way resembling the way it was obtained by the Nazis.

@JLeslie It is a bit disturbing for me to research the Holocaust knowing fully well that I may be looking at my family being tortured. I have a need to understand it for personal reasons. I believe knowledge is the best way to combat my personal fears so I have to study this and other things. I have been studying it since my late teens. I would imagine many descendants of Holocaust victims feel the same way as I do.

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Much information was obtained using methods that were thin veils for torture, with little or no scientific methods, but even that, if examined, could glean a kernal of information that can lead scientific study in a new direction or shed further light on topics currently under study.

Basically, I do not want my family to have died completely in vain if something gleaned from their horrific death can help someone in the future. If I had been tortured to death by the Nazis and been able to speak from beyond the grave, I would say to use anything learned from my death to help the living.

@JLeslie I have to disagree with you, that the knowledge can’t be accepted as a fact. I’ll agree, it’s not science, but a fact is a fact. If it was stumbled over accidently, it’s still a fact.

the acceptably safe voltage for domestic electrical supply was determined by these experiments i gather.

I’m of the opinion that to discard the knowledge because of it’s connection to a horrible act somehow diminishes the suffering and sacrifices of the dead and/or tortured.

Some of the shite they did…I had relatives in Holland who went through that. Some of their “experiments” consisted of things like typing the legs of women in labor together just to see what would happen…....

As someone who abhors torture and cruel medical experiments on humans, I cannot condone any further such evil behaviour.

As a scientist, I say any research data that has been produced through sound research methodology and proper replication and validation should be used.

No one can undo evil acts of the past but we all can be part of a system to prevent future barbaric research. Nothing is gained by ignoring useful knowledge obtained in the past, even where it was gleaned by horrible violations of human rights.

We must remember the atrocities of the past, lest we allow them to be repeated.
Our entire body of knowledge is built on the sum total of previously conducted sound research and observation. The process is cumulative. Today in most places, peer oversight is required before research on human subjects is conducted. The published results are then subject to peer review to assure good methodology and reasonable inferences from the observed data.

I am a Jew and I respect the human rights of all peoples, even those who would kill me for who I am. I oppose torture and medical experimentation done without ethical approval and informed consent. I would oppose the torture of even Osama Bin Laden or Hitler. I would not object to their fair and open trial by jury or their execution for their crimes of mass murder if convicted.

Morals and ethics do and should mix in scientific research. Discarding knowledge is pointless foolishness. It accomplishes nothing and does not undo the heinous acts of those whose research yielded any valid information. The honour of those misused and abused is maintained by our resistance to future acts of genocide and torture for any reason or with any excuse.

Never Again

I’ll chime in for the knowledge part. Whatever was learned from some of these is worth keeping, if it can be used for the good of people. And even if we CAN learn more by applying these ’‘methods’’, I think we’re advanced enough to find means to learn things in other ways without subjecting people to these atrocities. I also think we’re smart enough to use parts of these atrocities or what was learned from them in other, better ways.

Also though, as @Dutchess_III says, I’m questioning the authentic pursuit for knowledge that some of these people had. I read a lot of stuff about Unit 731, and it kinda seems that they were trying things just for the hell of it at times.

Regardless, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the darkest side of history should never be forgotten or ignored, most especially if it tends to repeat itself. Knowledge comes in many forms, and even though there’s no gain in knowing what happens if you try this or that on a living human being, there’s something there worth knowing.

I’m really torn in between how things are learned and what the price is for them though. I guess there’s things we’ll never know if we don’t apply the exact circumstances needed, but as I suggest I doubt there’s always just one path; this is considering that any medical knowledge was obtained from this kinda stuff, beyond just throwing everything in a cauldron and seeing what happens. :/

@mammal I do not remember that specifically but it would not surprise me.

@Neizvestnaya Exactly.

@Dutchess_III… and much, much more.

@Dr_Lawrence Bingo. Sadly, remembering atrocities of the past does not always prevent them from being repeated. Genocides, including by fascist systems, is ongoing to this very day. I am not talking about medical atrocities, rather genocide.

I would not be at all surprised to learn that “experimentation” like this goes on to this very day. On one hand I would say that it does not happen in America, however, look at the Tuskegee syphilis experiment . That was in the United States ending in the 1970’s. It makes me wonder what is being done today.

I agree that morals and ethics should mix with scientific research.

Na bister (never forget).

@Symbeline While I do not believe we should discard the useful information that was accidentally produced by such experiments, I do not believe there is any excuse for using the same methods. Back then the methods were not required… it was balls to the wall torture for torture and sadism’s sake.

Both the Nazi and Japanese methods were, to me, torture for torture’s sake… and, in Japan’s case, to produce biological weapons of mass destruction. I do not remember if the Nazi experiments were for that as well but do know that Unit 731 was used for it.

I am not torn between how things are learned vs. the price paid in this. Flat out, I say that there is not a snowball’s chance in Hell that the knowledge was worth the price. If any such methods are “required” for any knowledge, it is not worth it.

Knowledge is useful regardless of its source.

@Arisztid I do not believe there is any excuse for using the same methods.
Wasn’t saying there was. I’m saying that what was learned from these things could be applied in much better ways. But I agree, as I’ve stated before, I highly question the intent of the people who did these things, no matter how much they may have stated otherwise at the time. That should be a given.

As for the torn part, I’m more reflecting on that it happens, rather than whether or not it should. Whether the knowledge us useful or not, it sucks that it had to be obtained through means.

@Arisztid Yes, I agree that the knowledge should be used. I am not sure if my answer conveyed that. When I think of any crap I have been through at the hands of doctors that produced a bad result, or no change in a problem I was having, I want people to benefit from my own pain and the knowledge I have gained. I am not comparing what I have gone through to the holocaust, I am only saying that generally I would want my suffering to help others if it could.

@Adirondackwannabe It depends on what the experiment is. True that fact is fact. Generally in science studies require large randomized samples of participants, and conclusions drawn need to be shown to be reproduceable many times. Something can be fact for an individual, but not for many, and medical science would want information that is usefull for the masses. So depending on what they concluded, the Nazis that is, will depend on whether scientists agrees it is indeed reliable, or if it is antidoctal and concluded through unscientific methods.

@Dutchess_III That is one of the things that sticks out in my head; tying laboring women’s legs together. Disgusting.

@JLeslie Well said. I can’t disagree with you on that. For anyone else, I agree what the Nazi’s did was disgusting. Anyone that inflicts pain and suffering on another person for any reason isn’t really human. There’s enough accidents, diseases, and other things that cause pain and suffering. It’s monstrous to do it just because they could.

@JLeslie That’s why it’s amazing that only recently was shackling women prisoners in labor deemed unconstitutional.

@Dr_Dredd I had heard something about that. Were their legs actually tied down?

Many of these studies cannot stand up under modern scrutiny in order to be taken seriously.

As we now know, the people who originally conducted the studies had motives other than scientific and therefore these studies must be re-evaluated by modern standards. The stink of conflict of interest alone would disqualify any modern investigator and make that portion of his/her study invalid. This, and loss of data, is a big problem encountered in Nazi research.

Proper medical research is done under incredible scrutiny from many groups, including ethics oversight commissions, that ride each trial from design of protocol through to final conclusions requiring an immense amount of documentation. Then, it goes into post study review. (I would hate to be on the team that had to scrutinize Mengele’s twins studies in order to determine validity. I would never get another decent night’s sleep again.)

Anyway, because the individual primary investigators and their study designs, methods, patient screening criteria, documentation, or conditions, etc., usually can’t stand up to modern oversight standards, and since nobody in their right minds would ever replicate the studies—nor be taken seriously if they did so—most of the Nazi work that I’ve read about in journals is considered faulty and untrustworthy today. Useless. I can’t think of a better reward for these “scientists,” except, of course, enlisting them as subjects into their own studies.

Yes, Arisztid, many, many people died in vain. Inocent people, under incredibly humiliating circumstances. And that’s the bloody shame of the Holocaust in the first place, isn’t it? Even after 70 years you can look into a relative’s eyes and see that there is no way to lessen the pain, no way to absolve the evil. And it’s why you and I will go to our graves never forgetting this crime against mankind, this shame upon the human race.

@JLeslie Yes, their legs were repeatedly shackled to the bed.

http://advocatesforpregnantwomen.org/blog/2009/10/victory_shackling_pregnant_pri.php

http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights_reproductive-freedom/federal-appeals-court-condemns-shackling-pregnant-prisoners-la

@perspicacious Agreed.

@Symbeline I know you do not, my friend.

There is definitely no doubt as to the true motive of these methods. Mengele, the other Nazi “doctors,” and the “doctors” of Unit 731 (and other such units), used “reasons” for their torture as a bare excuse, however, the true reason was almost always straight up sadism. The “doctors” of Unit 731 also worked towards biological weapons. The doctors in the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments had a reason for what they did, however, it was no excuse for the suffering they inflicted unneedingly. People tend to forget that America is not innocent of such things.

@JLeslie Thankyou for clarifying, my friend, but I knew what you were saying.

I am one of those people who, if I had an odd, not well or not at all understood medical condition/ deformity, I would donate my body and treatment history to medical science, cooperating fully to help this cause while alive as well as dead. That way, what I go through would benefit those to follow. In fact, after I am dead and useful organs are harvested (I am an organ donor), I have signed my body over to the University of Michigan for its medical college.

@Dr_Dredd Wow… I did not know that but it makes very good sense.

@Espiritus_Corvus Yes, many of these “studies” do not stand up to modern standards and, in fact, they were not meant as anything more than a smokescreen for torture. Pseudoscience was rampant in the Nazi regime. An example of pseudoscience from that time was “proving” that my people are genetically incapable of anything other than criminal acts via skull measurements.

Definitely these studies must be re-evaluated with modern methods and modern humanity. Every scientific discovery has to be able to be reproduced via independent and reliable sources to this day.

Even thinking of having anything to do with Mengele’s experiments on twins elicits a completely emotional response from me because Mengele had a “fondness” for my people, twins being his preference. His “fondness” for us combined with his thing for twins made for very nasty bedfellows.

I have been driven to study the Holocaust to understand why. Knowing that I might be looking at my own family in archival photography has caused me more nightmares and lost sleep than I can even begin to describe. However, I had to study on because that was the only way for me to beat the boogeyman. I believe that, in order to not be ruled by fear and/or hate, I have to understand difficult subjects, studying until I do so. Here is one way I get it out.

Na bister… never forget. We do not.

@Arisztid A bit of a track off, but all these examples remind me of something somebody told me before, about these people who would test their bombs on small, out of the way villages that nobody really knew about much. So they were free to bomb them and not get in shit. But I forget who did this, I don’t even remember what country this was in. Any idea what I’m talking about?

@Symbeline The Japanese did that will biological bombs on small Japanese villages of small ethnic minorities in Japan and in small Chinese villages. If I remember correctly, Anthrax was the infective agent used and was brutally effective.

@Arisztid Yeah I remember them being a fan of Anthrax, but what I heard about were atomic bombs or something like that. But is it even possible to drop one of those and nobody would even notice? O_o

I think Americans set off bombs in remote parts of the country for testing also. But, I guess you are syaing the Japanese literally set off bombs near people? Was to see what would happen when they were exposed?

@Symbeline and @JLeslie Yes. They wanted to see what would happen if a town was exposed.

It was not anthrax, it was bubonic plague.

For example, in 1940, the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force bombed Ningbo with ceramic bombs full of fleas carrying the bubonic plague.[17] A film showing this operation was seen by the imperial princes Tsuneyoshi Takeda and Takahito Mikasa during a screening made by mastermind Shiro Ishii.[18]

However, some operations were ineffective due to inefficient delivery systems, using disease-bearing insects rather than dispersing the agent as an aerosol cloud[15]. It is estimated that 400,000 Chinese died as a direct result of Japanese field testing of biological weapons.[19]

During the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials the accused, such as Major General Kiyashi Kawashima, testified that as early as 1941 some 40 members of Unit 731 air-dropped plague-contaminated fleas on Changde. These operations caused epidemic plague outbreaks.[20]

Some other firsthand accounts testify the Japanese infected civilians through the distribution of foodstuffs, such as dumplings and vegetables, contaminated with plague. There are also reports of contaminated water supplies. Three veterans of Unit 731 testified, in a 1989 interview to the Asahi Shimbun, that they were part of a mission to contaminate the Horustein river with typhoid near the Soviet troops during the Battle of Khalkhin Gol.[21]

That was wiki but sounds right. Anthrax could not have been it because I remember fleas as the vector. I think they also did it on small Japanese villages as well as Chinese but I do not really remember.

Anthrax has always been a big player in potential biological warfare and was tested at Unit 731.

@Arisztid

That sounds right. I’m kind of a Plague nerd, and I’ve read that story in several books.

@Seek_Kolinahr Ditto. My plague nerdliness goes into two other types of nerdliness: disease (deadlier the better), genetic abnormalities (deadlier the better) nerdliness and how disease, especially the bubonic plague and ancient biological warfare, has changed world history. I am smacking myself for mixing anthrax and bubonic plague in this one. D’oh I had forgotten Anthrax’s vector and that Unit 731 had used fleas… wrong vector. :P

@Arisztid I seriously weirded out the owner of my favorite used book store when I found a first-edition of Barbara Tuchman’s “A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century”. It’s my favorite Black Death reference. ^_^ It was probably inappropriate to squeal like a little girl “Eeee! The plague book! Yay!”

@Seek_Kolinahr * turns green with jealousy *. I would have done something similar. :P

Let’s say that a woman is raped and, for whatever reason, decides to have the child. Later in life, that child discovers a cure for cancer. Should we not use the discovery even though the child was the outcome of an evil act?

There are three things involved in any human-generated outcome: intention, behavior, and outcome. There is a disconnect between all three. If the intention is there to do evil things but is never acted upon, all you have is an evil intention. If the intention is there and generated the behavior, then evil has been done, regardless of the outcome. But… if the evil behavior results in a positive outcome, can we not say that at least something good came from it all? Would refusal to use the positive outcome only add to the evil already done?

@CaptainHarley I just don’t find your example to be a good analogy, because every child to me is an innocent child. Just as every individual is separate. But, I agree that if good can come from evil, we should not ignore the positive outcome or information learned from the evil act.

@JLeslie

Point taken. : )

Not using the medical advances made on innocent victims during the last World War would make their death and the pain the suffered pointless…

@CaptainHarley I agree. I believe that refusing to use anything positive that came out of a negative act, any negative act, would compound the negativity of the action.

To me, it also dismisses the sacrifices made, willing or unwilling, simply because they died at the hands of one that was doing evil things.

@Erulin Agreed. If any helpful discoveries made by the torture of my family and people under Mengele’s “care” were discarded (I do not know if Mengele got my family but I do know that he “liked” us), their deaths would be absolutely for nothing.