Social Question

josie's avatar

Why do you hate Western Civilization?

Asked by josie (30934points) August 25th, 2010

I have not been on Fluther as long as most of you. But it seems clear to me that some of you think that Western civilization, and in particular it’s wealthy and muscular sibling, the US, is a force of evil on earth. I think it is clear to those of you who have noticed my comments on Fluther, that I do not agree with that point of view. Fair enough. But let’s face it. There is no other civilization on earth that promotes the virtue of the sovereignty of the individual (i.e. “human rights”) than the US. So, given the fact that all over the world, people mutilate women’s genitals, stone women to death for social indiscretions, burn people alive for not following the Koran, and fly airplanes into office buildings and incinerate innocents because they are infidels etc., just what is your gripe? When I was in the service, I ran into a few of the folks, in the Middle East, that you seem to admire. The truth is, most of them are crazy, and they would welcome the opportunity to cut off your head with a bread knife. So what is it. Why do you hate the West?

Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

44 Answers

Zyx's avatar

Your banks just screwed the world economy. Your “wars” are for profit and the people you’re talking about are on a really small piece of land, you’re no where near it. Basically you’re greedy bastards with no regard for anything. You’ve invented a million ways to make more money from money, once again destroying the world economy. Your politics are just as corrupt as those in the rest of the world.

SundayKittens's avatar

Worm can lid:engaged. Let’s do this!!!!

Jude's avatar

Oh, snap. Where’s ragingloli?

LuckyGuy's avatar

And we export the TV shows, “Cops” and “Maury”. No wonder people hate us.

jerv's avatar

I think that you have to draw a line there between “Western civilization” and “The American Way”, as we are appreciably different from other “Western” countries… and often in a bad way.

We do not have an exactly stellar record on human rights, and I don’t think that “we don’t publicly torture people” is a ringing endorsement, even if it does put us ahead of some other regimes outside of the “Western world”.

I also have a different experience with people in the Middle East than you do, mostly from the streets of Dubai. I won’t deny that you saw what you saw, but I don’t think it’s fair to make a sweeping generalization based on your trip through a bad neighborhood. I have also ran into quite a few religious zealots here but since they worship Jesus instead of Allah, it’s apparently acceptable.

Jude's avatar

^^ GA!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

I do not hate the Western civilization – extrapolation much? You seem to think that the concept of human rights and agency rests with the West, that’s a bit much as well. Evil comes from many places in this world and the U.S. sure has its share. As for the rest of your post, I will ignore its very poorly veiled islamophobia.

Seek's avatar

Damn. My answer was going to be “No, I loved that class”. Then I read the details.

Ah, well.

jrpowell's avatar

You forgot about Europe.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@johnpowell No, he didn’t – he said the U.S. is Western Civilization’s muscular sibling – I’m assuming he meant Europe in the first place as Western Civilization – I could be wrong.

Seek's avatar

Which is kind of funny, as the Western Civilisation begins in the Middle East.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Logic! Knowledge of history! Hush

Seek's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Sorry. I’ll put my books away.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr That’s better now. Before I make you wear a burqa like them a-rabs.

SundayKittens's avatar

We need to fight the real enemy, and that is Canada.
Helloooooo…..has everyone forgotten the Great Maple Syrup Embargo of 95??

‘CAUSE I HAVEN’T.

Seek's avatar

Hey, if anyone’s getting together a party to invade Canada for maple syrup, I’m totally in on that brigade.

Seek's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Just let me keep my nose on!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Don’t cheat on me and we’ll see if we can keep the cutting to your clitoris.

SundayKittens's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr As long as no one tries to church it up and pronounce it “seer up”. FISTSHAKE.

Jude's avatar

@SundayKittens Oh, no you di-ent. I’m armed with a rabid beaver, a broken, gnarled up bottle Screech Rum and some steal toe mukluks. Go ahead and try something, eh, punk.

SundayKittens's avatar

@jimah oh, i’m all abooot this slapfight, girrrrl.

JeanPaulSartre's avatar

I suppose it starts with the belief that the West is the center of the universe and than no one anywhere else is civilized and that there is no other valid way to run a nation… the fact that the West is run by corporate interests and values the dollar more than natural resources… but the real problem is all the damn women wearing pants! Obviously!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@JeanPaulSartre Excuse me, we have to wear pants so that we’re less likely to bleed all over the floors in public when we menstruate. Thanks

JeanPaulSartre's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir This is why you shouldn’t be allowed in public. Hello! And where’s my sandwich?!

Austinlad's avatar

Hate it? I’m damned thankful to have been born into it. Certainly the U.S part of it has a checkered history and many, many problems—more than any one President, Administration, Congress or Party can solve. But the best of us haven’t given up trying. Do I sound naive? So be it.

kevbo's avatar

If you really want an expert opinion on this answer read Derrick Jensen. Then watch “Dances with Wolves” or “Avatar.”

For the sake of argument, let’s lump the examples you give (except for flying airplanes into buildings) under the heading of “institutionalized violence.” That is, violence toward individuals that is codified by the rule of law or by custom or otherwise sanctioned by society and its institutions. How far back in U.S. history do we have to go to run into examples of institutionalized violence?

I think your qualifier “that there is no other civilization on earth…” holds some legitimacy and is also where things kind of get subjective. Let’s say for the sake of argument, that yes we’ve promoted the sovereignty of the individual and human rights like no other nation on earth. We’re the pinnacle of human civilization in that respect. Is it “success” to be relatively the best or “failure” to fall well short of our own propaganda (vis a vis the above as well as nonviolent, institutionalized discrimination? It’s a glass half full/half empty question, no? And if you believe so strongly that we have achieved so much, why do you bemoan the haters? A crying baby is a baby that’s healthy enough to cry! Shouldn’t you consider vocal discontent a symptom of a healthy democracy?

A third point I would like to draw from the wording of your question is that it’s not necessarily true that “haters of Western Civilization” are “admirers of folks in the Middle East,” especially in the sense that we must view them as somehow superior in their contributions to the world or in their ethics. Undoubtedly, many of them per capita and relative to a per capita sample of Americans (for example) are crazy and violent. I would be too if, using Afghanistan as an example, my country’s history was one of a steady stream of invasions, most significantly, one might add, by western powers.

What your question doesn’t leave room for, which is where Derrick Jensen’s writing would fit in, is the exploitation, sickness, and violence that predicates Western Civilization. Western Civilization organized as it is today around capitalism (or probably more accurately mutant capitalism) is about chewing up and spitting out natural resources, including human capital, as fast and as furious as technology, security and demand will allow. Corporations are the primary vehicles for this (mutant) capitalism, and (I’m sure this is elementary) in law corporations enjoy the rights of persons*. If you compare the characteristics of these deemed persons to the criteria of mental/behavioral health and well being, you might note that the behavioral traits of corporations match exactly the behavioral traits of psychopaths. Those of us today who “hate” Western Civilization primarily (I would think) hate the psychopathy that assaults us every moment of our lives. How far back to we have to go in U.S. history to see examples of corporations taking every opportunity to cut off our heads with bread knives? How about the heads of third world savages?

I suppose my last point is more esoteric, but what of the sovereignty of creation and our environment? Oh, right—calculation of carbon footprints and trading of carbon credits, recycling, wind power. Western Civilization is so smart to have discovered these things. Science, a pinnacle of western intellect, has given us a beacon of light to save ourselves from our own destruction. What other civilization in human history was so clever to devise such hopeful solutions? Well, there’s those weirdo indigenous cultures like Native Americans, but they were letting all those natural resources go to waste when they could have been making money off of them. Sacred mountain this and sacred river that. Idiots didn’t realize they were sitting on a gold mine.

Obviously, the anti-Western Civ POV doesn’t engender a ready solution, but it’s in part due to the fact that Western Civilization is ultimately borne of a 10,000 year old “problem” called totalitarian agriculture (you will want to digest that concept because I think it is central to setting up my final point).

My final point (and forgive me if I speak incorrectly for everyone else) is that the hate for Western Civilization is at its heart an inarticulate longing and lament for a connected, organic, natural and indigenous existence that we can hardly imagine (thanks to conditioning) in our conscious mind but nevertheless feel in our hearts/unconscious/soul/what have you. It is an impotent mourning for the lost sacred relationships to the world around us. We’ve traded spirit for progress and while folks like yourself maybe have adapted to the best that modern living has to offer, there are many of us who feel something is terribly wrong, but haven’t fully internalized what a solution would look like, and can’t in a way, because the only answer that really makes any sense is to let go of all this crap and go live in a cave. (But probably not in Afghanistan—hahaha!)

(Note to self: reread the story of Adam and Eve)

* There are other threads of discussion about whether everyday people are also, in fact, legal “persons” as opposed to “men” and “women” but for simplicity’s sake and since we colloquially assume they are synonymous, I will leave that be and assume a colloquial application.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@wwwhnf If you’re going to put useless words on a page that aren’t even your own, at the very least you can do us all a favor and link to the place where you’re copying and pasting from. We liberals may be stupider than rats but we can clickety-click on a hyperlink with the best of ‘em. And in spirit of this (now apparently liberal v. conservative debate), here’s an excellent quote from one of my favorite (wrongfully canceled) shows Studio 60 and The Sunset Strip:

Harriet ( the ‘conservative’): I don’t even know the sides of the culture wars.
Matt (the ‘liberal’): Your side hates our side because you think we think you’re stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you’re stupid. A cupcake if you guess which side I’m on. And, furthermore, shame on you for putting that after @kevbo‘s response and diluting intelligence with poopie.

wwwhnf's avatar

Why was my response moderated? I was answering the question!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, has the same response as me!

Responses must:
* Relate to the discussion
* Be respectful; you can disagree without being disagreeable
* Adhere to the writing standards

This is unfair practices!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir,

I did. I gave a full explanation for why I hate the western civilization. You took it as offense! Same Team!

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

@wwwhnf Don’t worry, it’ll be moderated. At least they were my own words. Besides, I’m funnier. And since you do know the rules about responses, why didn’t you follow them?

fundevogel's avatar

@wwwhnf I feel cheated that in about 90 percent of those jokes the punchline says so little about liberals or democrats that you could literally swap the words out for any group of people you felt like insulting. Jokes are supposed to really say something about what they ridicule. “They’re stupid” is simply too generic to be funny.

I wonder which came first? The lib/dem jokes or these versions?

How do you get a one-armed monkey out of a tree?

Why do men like smart women?

How do you confuse a Blonde?

Why is it good to have a blonde passenger?

…and so on. It should be noted that any joke whose subject is interchangeable isn’t a very good joke.

wwwhnf's avatar

Oh, I got a comment, no plagiarism. Fair enough. Although the jokes didn’t have an author to tribute.

JLeslie's avatar

@josie I think you have to understand that people outside of the US have a different perception; especially, imagine if they have never been here. We forbid Iran to have nuclear weapons, but we are the only country to actually drop them and kill bunches of people. We go into a preemptive war. We say anti-Muslim things constantly in the media that must be shown and shared with people who love to hate us. Imagine if you grow up with basically only these messages about America.

I remember in a 60 minutes episode this guy was telling Muslim college students that America does not hate Islam, that our President’s father was a Muslim, that we have Mosques all over our country, and non of them had ever heard any of that before. They have a picture of us that is not accurate.

MissAnthrope's avatar

I pretty much hate everyone equally.

tedd's avatar

I’m actually quite fond of my home country, the United States. Sometimes I don’t like some of the things it does though.

But I’ve always looked at it like this. The Flag will ALWAYS stand for the country, even when the country isn’t standing for the flag.

Seek's avatar

What is that supposed to mean, anyway? “Standing for the flag”. It sounds so… Mediaeval – like we’re supposed to march unquestioningly behind a banner, no matter what the banner means, because we happened to be born in one geographical area instead of another.

tedd's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr The “flag” is a substitute or one word description of everything that America is. All of our Freedoms, our goodwill, helping the world, freedom of speech religion etc…. the “flag” or things we believe in.

The Flag is a representation of that. And it will always stand for us, even when we don’t stand for it (turn against or forget what we believe in).

Seek's avatar

“everything that America is”. That would have to include the illegal occupation of other countries, long history of civil rights abuses, Government-sanctioned murder of innocent citizens (WACO, Kent State, etc.), worship of the Almighty Dollar before caring for the least among us… the list goes on.

Blind patriotism is an absurd notion. Hooray, you were born in America. You could just as easily have been born in Afghanistan. Would you be as patriotic then?

tedd's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr You are misunderstanding the point of the quote completely. Everything the Flag exemplifies is what America is supposed to be, the promise of America. Hope, chance, freedoms, etc. And the flag will always stand for that… even when the country isn’t standing for the flag and is doing things like “the illegal occupation of other countries, long history of civil rights abuses, Government-sanctioned murder of innocent citizens (WACO, Kent State, etc.), worship of the Almighty Dollar before caring for the least among us… the list goes on.”

Its not blind patriotism, its understanding the potential of the American dream and knowing the good will of the country… even when the country forgets it.

The example I would give at the moment is how everyone is up in arms about the mosque near ground zero. Freedom of religion is one of the things our country stands for, and the flag represents that. But people (I think like 70% of the country) are up in arms about it and don’t want it built. They have forgotten what the flag and our country stand for….. But it doesn’t change for me what the flag means (even though I know so many people under that flag are forgetting their way).

I hope I’ve explained that better.

Seek's avatar

I’m not missing the point at all.

You’re using the flag to symbolise an idealised society that has never existed, and never will exist, at least not in our lifetime.

Calling that idealised society “America” is simply the product of your geographical location.

fundevogel's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr it is an idealized country, but its the idealized country described in the founding documents so I don’t think the fact we haven’t achieved it yet is a reason to dismiss it as not American. We are getting closer to it. Despite the Declaration’s statement that “all men are created equal” at the start of this country only white male landowners could vote. Now all citizens over 18 can. That’s America slowly becoming the America that the flag stands for according to @tedd. We’ll be even closer once gay marriage is officially legalized (fingers crossed).

JeanPaulSartre's avatar

Well, the flag is a literal representation of the territories we conquered… but whatevs.

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.
Your answer will be saved while you login or join.

Have a question? Ask Fluther!

What do you know more about?
or
Knowledge Networking @ Fluther