"It's just a new McCarthyism, substituting 'muslim' for 'communist'".
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phaedryx (
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September 7th, 2010
I was in a conversation today about the current political and social climate when someone made this comment. Do you agree? Disagree? What is reasonable and where should we draw the line?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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I don’t think it’s quite reached that point yet. Yet being the operative word.
The Communist Witch-Hunts were terrible and the amount of prejudice Muslims face daily in the United States is terrible. How can anyone support either?
Listening to an excerpt from a “sermon” by the asshole of a preacher that plans to burn copies of the Qur’an, and references to places all over the country that are fighting having mosques built, and hearing all of the people claiming that they’re not bigoted when they fight having a mosque built in Manhattan – I am so disgusted by people.
It certainly seems to be a similar case of jumping on the hate wagon.
We seem to need bogeymen.
When people fail to distinguish between Muslims and Islamic fundamentalists bend on world-wide jihad, then their behaviour fits that statement.
Most Muslims I know think the distinction I just mentioned is important, just as most Christians distinguish between the attitudes and behaviours of ultra-conservative, extremely literal interpretations of the New Testament from the majority of mainstream Christian churches and their members.
Labelling all Muslims as terrorists is both incorrect and offensive. As a Jew, I abhor such ignorance and intolerance especially strongly because in my experience, I know how it feels to be treated that way.
Whatever your political affiliation, I urge people to actively resist the growing tendency to group all Muslims into one vilified category. Speak up and let people know where you stand on religious intolerance and discrimination!
No question McCarthyism is alive and well today. First it was Socialists hiding under every rock, undermining the very fabric of American society. Then illegal immigrants got shoved to the front of the demonization list. They leave decapitated bodies all over the desert claims Arizona Governor Jan Brewer (the area’s medical examiners say they have no idea what she’s talking about).. According to toxic talker, Michale Savage illegals only come here to commit crimes. None of them work. Savage goes on to claim illegals were the sole cause of the 2007 financial meltdown. In Savage’s strange world, it had nothing to do with Wall Street malfeasance. Formerly sane John McCain claims illegal aliens “Intentionally cause traffic accidents.” Now Muslims, not just radical Islam but all 1.2 billion of them, are getting added to the demonization list.
It’s a common human reaction to hard times. Find a minority to blame, and heap all the frustration on them. Claim that if only we could rid our country of this or that minority, none of this bad stuff would have happened. Certainly, it had nothing to do with decent folks like you and me. Sleaze-ball politicians know the psychology and are more than willing to use it to grab power for themselves. But it’s a dangerous brew. Look at how demonizing Jews worked out for Germany.
This is all part of the plan to regain power by republican operatives like Karl Rove. Demonize the president, equate social and health care programs with socialism, fined powerless groups to demonize, after all, a repressive government cannot operate without an enemy to fight and distract people from laws that limit and eventually destroy their rights. This is right out of Hitler and Stalin’s play book.
The neocons already gave us a set of unconstitutional laws called the Patriot Act and a secret police force with extraordinary powers called Home Land Security. I expect that when the republican and tea party people win the next election we will see the final end to the American Revolution and become just another fascist country.
I violently disagree. The individual who made this comment obviously had no relitives in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, or Afghanistan. Send them my way and I’ll give them an attitude adjustment!
No it’s worse. This is racism. McCarthyism wasn’t racism.
@CaptainHarley My son is in final staging right now with the US Army infantry. He deploys to Afghanistan at the end of this month. So don’t be so quick to assume that those who don’t agree with you have no stake in the fight, no personal understanding of it.
But I clearly understand that the people who attacked us on 9/11 were a group of Islamic extremists that represent a tiny fraction of the total Muslim world. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. What would be the ultimate cost of a war—one likely to become an all-out nuclear holocaust—trying to exterminate or convert all of Islam?
McCarthyism? I think not.
No Christian in America can put up a Christmas scene of the baby Jesus in
a public place, but huge crowds of Muslims can stop normal traffic every Friday afternoon in NYC by bowing to Mecca in hoards and worshiping in the streets. This happens every Friday in NYC on Madison Ave
Every Friday afternoon in several locations throughout NYC where there are mosques with a large number of Muslims that cannot fit into the mosque – They fill the
surrounding streets, facing east for a couple of hours between
about 2 & 4 p.m. – There is one at 42nd St & Madison Ave,
and another, even larger group, at 94th St & 3rd Ave.
This not in France or the Middle East or Yemen or Kenya. This is in New York City on Madison Avenue,
What is happening in America in regard to Muslims is reminiscent of what is happening in Europe. This is Political Correctness gone crazy.
The message? You can reasonably assume they are claiming America for Allah.
If we don’t wake up soon, we are going to “politically correct” ourselves right out of our own country!
“For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good
people to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
@Rarebear It seems odd that “muslim” is a race. Please explain.
@plethora WASPs are still the dominant class in America. They lead all others in wealth, income, home ownership, educational level, freedom from incarceration, leadership positions in government and industry. And yet the Con Men must constantly whine about how unfairly they are treated. Some minority either has stolen everything from them, or is about to..They need more rights NOW!
Muslims can’t put up a display in the public square for Ramadan either. Christians are welcome to pray in the streets. I would expect that if either group continually blocks traffic other arrangements would have to be made due to the public nuisicance involved. But here in the USA all religions have the right to proay in the streets, but not to use taxpayer supported property for a single faith’s religious display.
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I agree, with the statement and with everything that @ETpro has said.
@plethora I cannot begin to fathom your blind hatred and fear of muslims. It boggles my mind that in this day and age someone can be so ignorant. I mean seriously, “OH NO, WE’RE LETTING THEM PRAY IN THE STREETS!!!!!!!!”
McCarthyism and this recent hatred toward Muslims are different, but have roots in similar causes. Republicans today, like McCarthy back in the 50’s or 40’s or whenever, have no factual issues to stand on. Even though its not going quickly, the economy is recovering. Despite their rhetoric, healthcare is a good thing for America. The wars are winding down, etc, etc, etc. So the Republicans have done what they do best (or have done best in recent years) gin up fear. “ohhh scaryyyy people who are different, they want to destroy us and steal your freedom!!!”
Same story, same strategy, different minority group.
One has to wonder how long it will be til only old white people are voting for Republicans. How long until they’ve alienated literally every minority group, and the only ones voting for them are the ignorant….. oh wait.
McArthyism didn’t result in the deaths of tousands of Americans, both military and civlian. McArthyits didn’t hijack planes full of innocent civilians and fly them into skyscrapers.
@CaptainHarley Neither did Islam…. You’re thinking of crazy extremists.
You’re missing half the lessons history teaches.
Why do you suppose most muslims never speak out against those muslims who are using terrorist tactics to advance the cause of Islam? It’s because they AREN’T “against them.” Almost every muslim worldwide tacitly endorses using whatever tactics necessary to bring about the worldwide Caliphte they feel Islam should have.
I do not want my grandaughters to be some muslim shieka’s “property” and have to wear a Burka.
I do not want my grandsons to be brainwashed into believing the teachings of Islam, or to be trained as suicide bombers to attack whatever is left of Western civilization.
Make no mistake about this: I will fight with everything I have to prevent an Islamic takeover in this Country!
It’s Erev Rosh HaShanah so I won’t besmirch the holiday with the answer that I would like to give to that.^^^
Are you under some sort of illusion that Jews will somehow be spared, should the Islamists succeed? Keep in mind that the last Caliph was allied with Hitler.
@CaptainHarley So you personally know what is in the hearts and minds of 1.2 billion people, do you? Really? Your granddaughter will wear a burka? Such hysteria. Why don’t we just rewrite the constitution! Let’s throw out all of those original tenets that have to do with personal and religious freedom! Screw the founders, let’s live in our little isolationist island, bristling with nuclear weapons.
No thanks.
No, of course not – I don’t expect anyone to be taken over. I am not afraid of any religious group en masse, only the relatively few fanatics and extremists of all faiths.
@CaptainHarley Are you under some sort of illusion that you can speak for every single person in a religion you are not even part of?
Find one muslim who doesn’t want to take over America?
Done.
LOL! No, that would be too easy. What I want you to do is find one Muslim ( a relatively sane one if you can find him ), who will denounce the acts of violence perpetrated by their more radical bretheren, and who will renounce any and all violence in the name of Allah. You must have some way of proving that he is a Muslim.
It will take me awhile to read those, so while I am doing that, perhaps you would like to read this:
Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America
Available at Amazon in paperback from $8.39
: )
@CaptainHarley Have you seriously never seen the many instances of Muslims speaking out against terrorism? Something tells me you need to expand your news sources. Also, I find it extremely offensive that you said ”...find one Muslim ( a relatively sane one if you can find him)...”. I’m not even sure how to respond to a statement like that. Seriously.
@augustlan
You’re correct. That parenthetical statement was unkind. I apologize.
@CaptainHarley Interesting book. I think I’m partial to Going Rogue, myself.
Although I don’t believe I can really find a Muslim suiting your criteria (mostly because if I went up to someone on the street and asked them such things I’d probably get hit, cursed at, and arrested for racial profiling), I am a little confused at how you came to the conclusion that not renouncing all violence in the name of Allah leads to a bloodthirsty quest for world domination.
Just reading this thread, I think I shall not waste my breath in the funny little land of liberalism. Would that the liberal mind thought so kindly of the Christian god as it does of Allah. It strikes me as eerie that Allah, manifested in a murderous pedophile and now worshipped by all muslims peaceful or terrorist, gets more “respect” than Christ. Freedom of religion….that’s the rallying cry, is it not? As long as the religion is not the Christian religion.
@CaptainHarley Kudos. I would be constrained to comment had you not already covered the subject so well.
So Christians are the real victims here?
@plethora When I hear hate mongering like that done in the name of Christ, it makes me thankful that the US Constitution not only guarantees freedom of religion, but freedom from religion.
I am more and more confounded by so called conservatives who claim to be champions of the US Constitution. I’m coming to the conclusion that the only part they want to keep is the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, and that thing about all other rights being reserved to the states. They are all for freedom of speech to say what they want to hear, but are talking about “2nd Amendment Remedies” to stop speech they don’t agree with. That isn’t conservatism, it is Fascism. And all good Fascists need a minority to demonize and scapegoat. It’s straight out of the authoritarian playbook.
@CaptainHarley and @plethora you need your heads banged together. Theocratic islamo fascists are taking over the western world, please, get some perspective, this is absolute bullshit. It took years of preparation to condition and train a dozen fanatics to orchestrate an attack on the world trade centre, the Pentagon was barely grazed, and the other plane crashed. America could level every city in every Islamic state in a week and throw in Havana and Pyongyang for good measure.
@plethora What utter nonsense. No one is suggesting that Muslims should have more rights than Christians, just equal rights.
@augustlan I agree with you. And I, personally, am not suffering from deprivation of any rights, religious or otherwise.
My comment had nothing to do with rights, but everything to do with perception. The liberal mindset, to which I freely expose myself here on Fluther, is very lenient towards the “peaceful” religion of Islam, notwithstanding major recent atrocities by some of its adherents on American soil. Not talking about just the destruction of the Twin Towers (by adherents of Islam who were fulfilling their version of Allah’s demands), but also the beheading of a Muslim wife by her Muslim husband as an “honor” killing (in NY about a year ago), the multiple murders at Ft Hood by a US ARMY OFFICER who was fulfilling his religious duties as he perceived them as a Muslim. Note here that the man (based on news reports I read at the time) had been clearly identified by superiors as a problem as a result of his Islamic ravings. However, it was also noted that it was excessively politically incorrect to address the issue to the extent that it would destroy the person’s career who made such comments.
My point is that had these same acts been performed by 14 Christians or 14 Jews, I seriously doubt that America’s liberal contingent would be nearly so kind and forgiving to us right now as it is to the “peaceful” religion of Islam.
@ETpro @mammal Ditto
And the US Constitution does not guarantee freedom from religion. It guarantees that the government cannot establish a religion (a doctrine which has been stretched to ludicrous extremes over the years to serve the ends of liberal objectives…such as the notion that the constitution guarantees freedom from religion, a concept which it does even touch.
@plethora You state that you wish liberals would be less forgiving and kind to the religion of Islam.
I’m curious, what would you prefer? Elevated penalties for anyone who commits a crime who also happens to be islamic? Ethnic Cleansing?
@plethora Again I say my son deploys to Afghanistan at the end of this month. He’s an Army infantry officer. My older son is out now, but he served in the Idaho Army National Guard. I served my time in the US Navy and my dad served in WWII. If we are attacked by any religious zealots, regardless of their religion, or by atheist communists or whatever else you care to dream up, little green men from Mars, I would serve to defend this country again today if the military would have an old man like me. I would bet most liberals and conservatives alike would do the same. I am fed up with conservatives bellowing about them being the only patriots, especially when so many turn out th be chicken hawks. I have no idea what service you and your family have given our country, so that’s not said about you. But don’t be denigrating my patriotism.
We are fighting radical extremists and we’re paying in blood and treasure to do it. I do not want to lash out at all of Islam unless they decide to pick a fight with us. Targeting the entire religion because a few extremists attacked us would require us to exterminate over a billion people. Is that what you think we ought to do?
The US Constitution, by establishing separation of Church and state, most certainly does guarantee freedom from religion. I challenge you to find the clause in the Constitution or Amendments that requires all atheists and agnostics be compelled by force of law to adopt some religion. It isn’t there.
@plethora If you’re going to list atrocities that can be attributed to Islam, be sure to also list the atrocities attributed to Christianity (a mother drowning her kids because “God” told her to…..and on, and on, and on…)
@ETpro @dverhey @syz
My comment had nothing to do with rights, but everything to do with perception
This sentence is key to the post you are addressing. Please tell me if I am suggesting any action whatsoever in that post.
The mother who drowned her babies did not do it in the name of her religion. It was not a religious act.
From the pages of today’s news, re the burning of the Qu’ran:
First, I am strongly opposed to anyone burning the Qu’ran
Second, I fully support President Obama’s efforts to warn against this action.
Third, I think Gen Petraeous is right in his estimate that the action will endanger our troops
Fourth, I think the vast majority of “peaceful” Muslims would condemn any violence as a result of this act, and would also rightfully condemn the act itself.
The fact that this is big enough news for POTUS to be speaking out against it and warning of danger if it happens illustrates one very important reality about Islam. 95% of the world’s Muslims do not need to be terrorists for Islam to achieve its goals. Less than 5% will do nicely. Only 2.5% of the UK population is Muslim. But that 2.5% has maneuvered itself into important government civil service posts and is now working to mitigate official action against Muslims in the UK re the violence that the UK now finds in its own backyard due to its cozying up with “peaceful” Muslims over the last two decades.
UK Muslims
The Muslim population in the US is 1.6% of the total population. 2.5% works nicely in the UK. It will probably work nicely here.
Note that even now it is politically incorrect to criticize any Muslim action (Note the Ft Hood shootings). “Politically incorrect” being defined as social and organizational pressure to limit freedom of speech.
I do not hate Muslims. In fact, I would support any action to save women and children under Islamic rule to safely leave the laws and male behavior under which they are trapped, as well as any other Muslim. Muslims, unfortunately, cannot just change religions without paying the ultimate price. So let’s not be flinging around the term “hate mongering”.
Just that old black magic Someone please remind me what a peaceful religion this is. Solomon Rushdy gets a price put on his head for writing a book. A cartoonist gets the same. Now a dozen of their holy books might be burned. A hundred dozen Bibles, no problem. A hundred dozen American flags, no problem. Cutting off a young girls nose and ears, no problem. (Of course, the “great satan” conspired to bring the girl to the US and restore her nose and ears. How offensive can a nation be?)
Even now, Islamic extremists garner world attention (cloaked by their “peaceful” but complicit brethren) and can bring threats and danger across the globe.
@plethora Your fears stike me as illogical paranoia. I know that it you listen to right-wing toxic talkers, you could easily get the impression that the whole world is about to fall to Sharia law. I think, though, that there are more than enough brave and strong people in the UK for 97.5% of the population to not be cowed by 2.5%. See http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/9151637/Are_Muslim_radicals_trying_to_provoke_a_civil_war_in_Britain/
I know I would fight any move to convert the US to an Islamic Republic. So would my son, who knows well how to fight and win. There are about 800,000 Muslims in the US among 307.000,000 people. I would bet that almost all of the other 306,200,000 non Muslim Americans would fight any attempt to force Islam down our throats. I like our odds much better than theirs if they do ever want to pick that fight.
I will repeat a post I gave in response to a similar expression of Islamic paranoia in another thread. We are not at war with Islam. If they really ever do decide they want a war, they have about 1.2 billion of a world population of 7 billion. So we (everybody else) outnumber Islam by 4.8 to one. Much of the Arab world is quite primitive with obsolete or nonexistent military technology. The West, Russia and China are armed to the teeth. Islamic nations have something like 70–90 nuclear warheads. We (everyone else) has nearly 30,000. Who do you think might win that war?
@ETpro You should advise Mr. Obama that he is lost in illogical paranoia regarding destruction of a few Qu’rans. It’s not like the Islamic world can rise up and declare war on us.
@plethora See, here’s the thing. If a bunch of Christians, Jews, or Atheists committed a terrorist act (and some have, to be sure), liberals would NOT condemn all Christians, Jews, or Atheists. We are able to separate the wheat from the chaff (ordinary people from extremists). We would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. <Insert additional appropriate cliches here> We’d react exactly the same way as we are with Muslims. Rationally.
@augustlan I respect what you’ve said, I just don’t believe it is true. If my brother walks into the home of a young family and murders them all hideously, I seriously doubt that everyone else is going to be rational and treat me with equanimity. And particularly not if my brother and I are both members of a sect that specifically teaches and promotes murdering young families in their homes. If I have any hope of being treated rationally and fairly, I had best be putting some distance between me and my brother and, most definitely, putting some distance between me and the evil sect. It would do little good to talk about how peace loving I am and remain a member of the sect….even though I, personally, had done no wrong.
And here is the thing, @augustlan it is my brother’s action, in this case, not my own, that has recast how I am perceived. But it is up to ME to take action to make sure I am not cast with the sect or my brother. It would not be enough to simply give lip service to my peace loving nature if I remained a member of the sect.
Unfortunately, the Islamic terrorists have recast how all of their peace loving brethren are perceived in America. And, to segue just a bit, it would be terribly foolish of me to buy the house next door to the family my brother had murdered and put my name on the mailbox and hold meetings of the sect in my home….no matter how innocent and peace loving I am.
It’s not that I don’t have the right to buy the house next door and use it as I want. But it is a really nasty thing to do.
@plethora I don’t need to tell the President anything. And on the two occasions when I tried, he completely ignored me anyway. If and when Islam clearly tries to use intimidation to push for more control of non Muslims, not in some case of doing something stupid like burning Qu’rans, but where it impacts our freedoms and rights that we normally exercise, I expect that any Commander in Chief would draw the line and tell them they can apply their religion to themselves, but not us.
On the issue of the book burning, I am not too concerned. I come closer to your position on the Sweedish cartoons, and definitely on Salman Rushdie’s publication of The Satanic Verses. That starts to cut to the core of a precious freedom to speak.
@plethora I don’t see any way to convince you that judging all Muslims by the acts of a very small segment of people is no different than condemning all Christians for the acts of the Crusaders, the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church. I don’t see any way to convince you that I would not judge you by your brother’s actions. I would never do any of that. Never. We will just have to disagree.
Rednecks confuse bigotry, ignorance and blind hatred for Patriotism.
Real Patriots stand up for the Constitution, the rights of all people regardless of their skin colour, their religion or lack of it, their gender or sexual orientation.
It’s easy to be an ignorant bigot, that’s why there are so many. They think being loud is a substitute for doing what is right and honourable. That takes hard work and requires real courage.
Blaming millions of people for the beliefs and actions of a few or a small, loud, ignorant, violent group is a demonstration of stupidity, not Patriotism.
Living as a responsible citizen in a free country is hard work. It takes thoughtful reflection, ongoing learning and respect for the rule of law. It takes courage to stand up for the rights of people you see as unlike you and whose beliefs and life choices you do not understand.
It is so much easier to condemn and attack those about whom you know little or nothing beyond what you have heard from others who know nearly nothing or who speak out against others with no basis other than their ignorance and fear.
Those who lack the discipline to be real Patriots, should at least keep their ignorance and bigotry to themselves.
Real patriots, like Dr. Lawarence said, stand up for their country. My father, myself and my children fought for our country. I would fight any religious group that would co-opt the constitution the way that Thomas Jefferson fought against those that insisted that there be chaplains in the military and in congress. He would have been, and I am, appalled by the “National Day of Prayer” that the Christians seem to see that the President is obligated to support.
The absolutely worst danger to Democracy is to allow any religion to hold sway over the law. Further, where is you abhorrence over religious tax deductions, or even the fact that Christmas is an official holiday?
@plethora I think that as long as we make American Muslims feel like a repressed minority they will fight as one. I’m old and remember when the Polish and Italians were considered ignorant and dirty. Of course they are now assimilated and are now just Americans. I see no problem assimilating Muslims. Sure the first generations will be hard core but their children and grandchildren, if unmolested, will be indistinguishable from any other Americans.
By the way, I spend a great deal of time in the Southwest, the only difference between a Hispanic American and an Irish American is the suntan. The main objection to Hispanic immigrants, is similar the the objections that the right wing has to Muslims. WASP conservatives don’t like anyone that is a little different. This whole argument is just xenophobia.
@Ron_C I hope you continue to see no problem assimilating Muslims. Apparently those peace loving Danes did encounter a problem and had to change their ways when they realized Muslims were a very different and very aggressive breed. Here
@augustlan You wouldn’t…but human nature and the general public are another matter. Thank you though.
@plethora by coincidence, I read an article by Christopher Hitchens in which he says that society routinely inhibits the free expression of religion. A couple examples were the flat out pronouncement that unless the Mormons reject plural marriages, Utah would not be permitted into the Union. Jehovah’s Witness adults are free to die waving away physicians that would cure their disease but are prosecuted if they fail to provide modern medical care for their children. As to your example of Muslims holding up traffic in NYC. I can’t see New Yorkers putting up to wanton traffic disruptions for long. A frustrated New Yorker is not going to be sympathetic to aberrant religious beliefs if it delays his arrival to his home or office.
Therefore Muslims in the U.S. will eventually conform to American standards of decency and practice. For example no “honor killing” is likely to be spared from prosecution on premeditated murder charges, and anyone caught mutilating children with female circumcision will not go unpunished.
I would like to point something out:
@plethora pointed to a news story regarding Muslim worship in the streets of New York. If one googles for information about it, one can find almost identical language on several websites as the language in @plethora‘s post here regarding the “This is not France” and other hatemongering rhetoric.
I do not know where these people live. Apparently, it is not New York City. I do live here, and have never, ever seen this happen…so upon more research, I discovered this, which reveals that the photos and images associated with the claim are actually taken from a parade, which happened on Friday, but is the Muslim Pride annual event – and therefore happens once a year. Statements regarding the weekly gathering are a complete fabrication, and tend to call into question similar referenced sources.
“For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good
people to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
Exactly right. Which is why I will combat irrational Islamophobia wherever it pops up.
@iamthemob we have been systematically fed lies from the right and extreme left that people are now accepting without critical review. Part of the reason is that today’s American suffers from a deteriorating educational system and the insistence of fast answers on all issues. Personally, I just wrote off the “weekly traffic disruptions” as an urban legend. I commend you for researching the matter and showing that the “information” had a much more malicious intent.—Thanks
@Ron_C – I wouldn’t really attribute it to the education system in this case (although not arguing with that point objectively), but more with the massive amount of information that’s out there…it’s hard to separate what’s good from what bad. So sound bites become what people think of as the truth – when really, they’re just repeated.
Thank you so much. I would have done the same except for the fact that I was being told something was happening just down the street that I had never, ever seen. I understand that people are being fed rhetoric and buying it – but the fabrication of clear lies is not just ignorance or laziness – it’s a frighteningly determined will to be blind.
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