Why is Homophobia found to be any less acceptable that Homosexuality?

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. And thus, phobias often lead to hate.

Many people accused of homophobia are often being accused by a heterophobic person.

Because, and I know this must be a newsflash to some people, our sexuality as queer people isn’t about straight people, whatsoever so it’s not a phobia – just because two things exist doesn’t mean they can be examined within the same framework. I can accept homophobia exists, it’s plain to see, but because the effects of this unfortunate condition (seems to me you want to take blame off homophobes by explaining they’ve got a disorder just like intense fear of spiders and can’t control saying hateful things) are harmful to people whose attractions aren’t, I’ve got no tolerance for it. If you think you’ve got this disorder, please see a psychiatrist like you would any other time you’d find yourself ‘suffering’ from a phobia.

There is nothing wrong with homophobia. It’s when homophobia manifests into something else (such as aggression towards homosexuals) when there is something wrong with the person who has it.

Would you consider someone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle but who treats homosexuals just like everyone else a homophobe?

I ask because I know some folks who do just that.

What if they don’t like homosexuality but keep that opinion to themselves?

@weeveeship Yes. Who I choose to spend the rest of my life with is a rather large part of who I am. If you can’t accept that, it’s really kinda pointless that you accept my taste in jewelry.

I feel like a true homophobic is kind of like a unicorn. I don’t really use the term myself. I think because I’ve never encountered a truly homophobic person (they’re probably avoiding me…you don’t really seek out the sources of your phobias). So I doubt they’re the one’s shouting that stuff at me outside the bars…

@weeveeship Would you be friends with someone who thought who you love is wrong but still thought you were tolerable as a friend?
@Ben_Dover Yeah, ‘cause there are so many more heterophobes out there than homophobes…oh wait…that must be why we’re queer, we hate straight people – it all makes sense!

I think that “phobia” is a misnomer in this particular case. Let’s think about what a true homoPHOBE would do when encountering a gay person. They might have a fear reaction, where they get a surge of adrenaline, a fight-or-flight response based on personal survival, they might take shelter. But these things generally do not happen. Instead, those who are referred to as “homophobes” might do things like tell the gay person they ought to change, that they’re morally wrong, or that they’re sick. Even if they engage in a little gay-bashing, the reason is usually to lash out and hurt the gay person, and not as a survival response to the gay threat.

As such, the proper word might be misogaynist, to play on “misogyny” or a hate of women. (Misohomosexualist is long and a little unwieldy, but “misanthropist” – the hatred of mankind – would be a larger category.) I can see where gay people, reacting to the hate, might say something like, “yeah, you’re just afraid of us” in a schoolyard bravado kind of way, but as we see, it’s not really fear, it’s hate and lack of understanding. An antisemite is not a semitophobe, for example. Or, we could just go with your word, @realeyes, because it’s good too. ;)

So, why is the hatred of gay people worse than being gay? Because one is about hate. The other is about love.

I think you are getting far too caught up in semantics. I fully understand that there could exist people who are afraid of homosexuals, but this does not give them permission to be prejudiced against homosexual individuals. There also exist people who are afraid of people with dark complexions, but that does not give them a free card to be racist.

So, yes, “homophobia” may not accurately represent all people who prejudiced against homosexuals, but the word is not the point.

First of all, no one means “fear of homosexuals” when they say “homophobia”. Yes, that’s what the root words mean. That’s not what the word itself means. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia – intense fear or hatred of homosexuals.

Second, it’s less acceptable because prejudice toward gay and lesbians is a set of emotions – and frequently actions – that are taken directly against a particular group of people. Ie, it has victims. It leads to assaults, denial of rights, etc. Homosexuality, on the other hand, does not have any victims. Two people of the same sex being attracted to one another, being in a relationship with one another, being married to one another – none of that impacts anyone else in any negative way.

So the question is, “Isn’t tolerance just bigotry against intolerant people?

In other words, if you hate Nazis and the Klan, you are the real racist.

Because my intense fear of spiders isn’t going to lead to prejudice, discrimination and violence toward another human being. Phobias are usually things people try to get over, they try to change what they know is completely irrational and inexcusable. Homophobes (for lack of a better word) relish their fear, hatred whatever and use it as an excuse to be, at the very least, prejudice, and at the most extreme, a killer.

@jaytkay ;)

This is more of a linguistics question than anything. I hate to bring out this tired phrase, but: language changes.

The suffix ”-phobia” no longer exclusively means fear. If you look up “homophobia” in the dictionary it will say “fear or hatred of homosexuality”. It’s understandable why a term originally meaning “fear” turned into something meaning “hate” (since we often hate what we fear), but the suffix has changed and that’s just how language goes. The word “Japanophobia” was used to refer to the prejudice and hatred of the Japanese during World War II. Maybe people were afraid of them, but it referred mainly to the hatred.

Maybe there should be a better term, but you can’t exactly control how language is used on a large scale.

@DominicX And really, as I’ve told @Nullo many times on Fluther, it doesn’t matter what he calls it, I don’t like it when he does it.

As has already been said here and according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia , homophobia is an ”:irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals”.

Homosexuality is about who you love and in most cases homophobia is about who or what one hates.

I can’t be the only one that found this funny..

Many people accused of homophobia are often being accused by a heterophobic person.
posted by : Ben_Dover

@johnpowell Don’t worry, we got it, :)~

Homophobia is just an insult, and is designed to stop questions by people who are confused by or do not feel comfortable with homosexuality. It is the same thing as calling someone a racist, who in fact is not a racist. It is a tool. It is designed to put a spotlight on people who might be shy enough to leave the discussion, leaving only those who are willing to be labeled as “homophobe”. Once thus isolated, they are an easier target.
Example: I do not like the president. I have been called a racist on Fluther when I said it. I am not a racist. But at that point, in our time, there is a sort of unspoken expectation that I defend myself. Screw that.
The word homophobia is used in the same fashion.

Bend over. @Ben_Dover!

How’s that for your heterophobia! (sorry…GA, GA, I know…)

@josie So there are no real racists or homophobes?

@josie Homophobia is not just an insult. Can someone be called homophobic for no reason? Yes. That’s like saying racism is just an insult, which is obviously not true. @papayalily beat me to it.

and is designed to stop questions by people who are confused by or do not feel comfortable with homosexuality

Wait…is this a part of the “gay agenda” the religious right keeps telling me about? Do you know where they meet? I’m not on the mailing list…

@jaytkay ^^b

I only had a “phobia” of gay people when I was a sophmore in highschool….although strangely, when I went out into the world and met some of these infamous gays, I easily saw they were the same as everyone else…..my “phobia” was gone in a simple process called reflection. Strange, huh?

Just wondering, did anyone read to the end of @RealEyesRealizeRealLies’ question, or are they just jumping in half-cocked?

@laureth I did. I found that the base premise was flawed, so the research didn’t matter. Had we all agreed that homophobia really is about fear, and not hate, then it would have mattered.

@laureth I did – I had a problem with saying that just because thing A exists and thing B exists, that anyone can say homophobia should be just as acceptable as sexuality.

@papayalily and @Simone_De_Beauvoir – Down past all the research was a discussion on how “fear” is different from “hate” which was, imho, the point that @RealEyesRealizeRealLies may have been trying to make.

@laureth Right and I didn’t address anything having to do with that because it’s obvious, to me, that fear =/= hate.

@laureth Then it’s probably a question that needs to be asked outside of the idea that homophobia has nothing to do with hate.

The one thing I can say in support of homophobia “as is” is that it really can be used to describe people who don’t understand homosexuality, from whatever perspective. And fear is often associated with the unknown (as @papayalily already addressed…and Yoda…etc….).

Beyond all of this, I often just use the phrase “Hey, assholes!” to describe “those people.”

@laureth Just wondering, did anyone read to the end of @RealEyesRealizeRealLies’ question…?

Conceded, we are mostly not responding to this part of the original question:
“I propose that we carefully point out the differences between those who fear Homosexuals, and those who actually hate Homosexuals.”

So here goes:

I will wager the number of people with some innate incurable fear is infinitesimally small compared to the number of hateful bigots and self-hating closet cases who actively work to make life miserable for other people.

@DominicX Great point about Japanophobia. I think people are ‘afraid’ of homosexuals because they hear of lame reasons like aids or whatever. If there was no fear inducing propaganda, and gays were just ‘there’ without the drama, people would be less fearful, just like people would be less afraid of japanese people if pearl harbor was not attacked.

I like your term “misogaynist” @laureth. It’s definitely a more clinical depiction that “Haterosexual”. Haterosexual could itself be used as an insult. But I think that was the point, to allow an insulting vernacular to remain available alongside a more clinical description.

I understand those who equate fear with hatred, or those who believe fear leads to hatred. It can, and it can seem to, but IMO, they are not synonymous by any measure.

The fact that a phobia is a fear which can be diagnosed and treated defeats any argument that it is synonymous with hatred.

As well, many so called Homophobics are not necessarily directly fearful of Gays themselves, but indirectly fearful for the downgrading of society that Gays are perceived to bring about. This does not mean they hate Homosexuals by any measure. They just don’t want society to change so far to the point where they don’t recognize it any longer.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Gimme a break…..Fear of the downgrading of a society? So I guess the people distraught about what race mixing will do to a society have a legitimate fear as well?

Being a white man who was married to a black woman, I understand your concerns. But the fact remains, if a clinical definition for phobia is an irrational fear, then we must consider the possibility that an irrational fear of interracial relationships may in fact be a phobia as well.

I don’t equate fear with distraught either.

And yes, the argument that Homosexuality will be the downfall of society is a consistent argument made by the most ardent Homophobes. This is not new news.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I see, so we must find a solution to help these poor people and cure them of their condition, or at least help them cope with it.

Must we? Must we help someone get over Acrophobia? We can, but must we?

Point being, that many Acrophobics won’t seek treatment. They can’t be forced.

An many times, even if they do, they are only brought to a point where they can barely tolerated heights. But they may never actually embrace them. They may, but they may not.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Indeed, like @Jaytkay said, the population is very small.

Arachnophobes are dangerous to spiders. If they can’t work up the nerve to kill the spiders themselves, then they ask an agent to do the job for them. It seems to me that homophobes follow the same tactic.

Unfortunately for spiders, they don’t have attorneys, periodicals and journalists advocating on their behalf, and they don’t vote. If they did have those things, then they would have rallies, lobbyists and some form of grassroots political organization to foster their interests in law, the courts and society at large. And why shouldn’t they? As a matter of fact, what I try to tell people when I rescue spiders from their homes and put them outside in a garden, “Spiders are our friends.”

I don’t give in to arachnophobia, even though when they catch me unawares, spiders can give me an occasional visceral bad reaction or fright. I try to advocate for homosexuals, too. They’ve never hurt me any.

The basis of the details of your question is flawed. The definitions you have given from Wikipedia and NIMH are about clinical phobias that are diagnosed by psychiatrists. In other words, mental illness.

Homophobia is not and cannot be defined as a mental illness. No matter how much I think it’s sick.

I have to side with @DominicX and others that the dictionaries state the meaning of homophobia includes hatred of homosexuals. You are welcome to try to coin your own term, but the logistics involved in getting a new word into wide circulation are tremendous.

Yes, it is much more difficult to create a new word with new meaning than to embibe new meaning into existing words.

For this we conflate fear with hatred at the expense of devolving language, rather than evolving it.

There’s no need to coin a new term.
I think “bigot” works just fine.

@johnpowell I found it humorous, too.

@breedmitch Would you call an Acrophobic a bigot?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Please, use a dictionary, and stop this facile logic. Not all phobias are treatable illnesses.

Not one mention of “hatred” or “bigotry” in any definition of Phobia that I can find anywhere.

pho•bi•a
–noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

Word Origin & History

phobia
1786, “fear, horror, aversion,” Mod.L., abstracted from compounds in phobia, from Gk. -phobia, from phobos “fear,” originally “flight” (still the only sense in Homer), but it became the common word for “fear” via the notion of “panic, fright” (cf. phobein “put to flight, frighten”), from PIE base *bhegw “to run” (cf. Lith. begu “to flee,” O.C.S. begu “flight,” bezati “to flee, run,” O.N. bekkr “a stream”). Psychological sense attested by 1895; phobic (adj.) is from 1897.

Medical Dictionary

pho·bia definition
Pronunciation: /ˈfō-bē-ə/
Function: n
: an exaggerated and often disabling fear usually inexplicable to the subject and having sometimes a logical but usually an illogical or symbolic object, class of objects, or situation compare COMPULSION OBSESSION

phobia pho·bi·a (fō‘bē-ə)
n.

1.A persistent, abnormal, or irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid the feared stimulus.
2.A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.

-phobia suff.
An intense, abnormal, or illogical fear of a specified thing: claustrophobia.

Cultural Dictionary
phobia [( foh -bee-uh)]

An extreme and often unreasonable fear of some object, concept, situation, or person.

Dictionary.com

Nothing about “hatred” or “bigotry” on the Online Etymology Dictionary either.

Homophobia may have been defined to suit a particular notion of hatred and bigotry, but it was done so by abandoning all reference to the established definition of phobia. This is an error. A better word could have been crafted.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Words change. That’s simply how it is. “Gay” also used to mean “happy”. That’s not what it means any longer. A new word could have been created for “attracted to the same sex”, but it wasn’t. An existing word was co-opted. It’s not “an error”. It’s simply the natural progression of how languages work.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies…. again, you are getting caught up in the etymological break down of the word “homophobia.” As @MrItty points out, it is not unheard of that words can go under a shift in definition over time (see the Semantic change article on Wikipedia.) It does not matter what the root words meant in Greek or Latin – if there is a change in the way we use a word colloquially, then the word itself changes.

It does not matter how the suffix ”-phobia” has traditionally functioned in the English language. The word “homophobia” as a whole connotes something different.

The word for “attracted to the same sex” is homosexual. Gay is an adjective converted to a noun to suit a particular designation. But as an adjective, it still means “happy”. Gay, I believe was slang at first.

I just checked the synonym list for phobia on dictionary.com. Hatred is listed as a synonym for phobia. That is acceptable to me.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies No, gay, as an adjective, means both happy and homosexual. It has multiple definitions. It USED to only mean happy. Again, WORDS CHANGE.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gay

–adjective
1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.
3. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season.
4. licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies.
5. homosexual.
6. of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.

Got it! Thanks.

In that light, the term “misogaynist” that @laureth suggested may not be appropriate to designate one who hates homosexuals.

I’m still wondering though, must Homophobia refer to one who hates Homosexuals, or one who has an aversion to Homosexuality for themselves?

For instance, I personally have more than just a slight aversion to participating in any Homosexual act. It’s more than a simple “It’s not for me”. Thinking about a Homosexual act upon myself actually creeps me out a bit. But since it wouldn’t really hurt or harm me in any way, then could my personal aversion be considered as an irrational fear? Thus my irrational fear would satisfy the root meaning of the word phobia, thus qualifying me as a genuine Homophobic, yet one who does not hate Homosexuals in any way whatsoever.

See what I’m saying? I don’t know if I’m Homophobic or not.

“An aversion to homosexuality for oneself” is called “heterosexuality”.

Of course it would hurt or harm you, because it’s not something you would willingly choose – therefore, if it happened, it would be against your will. That is, it would be rape. Hence, it’s perfectly natural to be “creaped out” by the thought of you yourself participating in such an act.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies I’m really creeped out by the thought of me having sex with an 80 year old man. Doesn’t mean I think it’s wrong or have any problem with it for others, it’s just not for me.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies – is your aversion simply to the idea of yourself engaging in a homosexual act, or does it extend to a phobia (fear, hatred, whatever) of gay people, even if they’re not committing that act with you? (For instance, if you were next to someone in line at the grocery store who happened to have a gay pride shirt or something?)

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

If it’s an aversion…it’s not a fear. I think most people just call that “heterosexuality.”

I don’t think that when “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” for instance, that they’re brunette-phobic.

Yes it’s completely the thought of the act upon me. And as much as I hate to admit it, I don’t even like the thought of picturing two men together, even when I’m not involved. It’s the thought of the act that creeps me out.

But oddly enough I’ve gone to the Gay Pride parades numerous times. My friendship network consists of many Homosexuals. In my younger days, our group of Hetero couples and Homosexual friends would end up at all night Gay bars and party until the sun came up, leading us to the Gay Pride parade downtown the next morning.

Everything is cool until I get hit on. And there is a room in the bar which was completely dark. Asking about it’s purpose, I was told that room was devoted to totally anonymous homosexual orgies with complete strangers in complete darkness. I can’t tell you how much that freaked my mind out completely. I just couldn’t imagine.

I’ve been followed home and propositioned. I’ve been pursued on the highway by guys trying to get my attention so they could make an obvious gesture of wanting to suck my cock. Hahaha I know that sounds crazy but I’m tellin’ ya these things happen to me OMG! About six months ago I shot a magazine cover for an out of town client. In private, the art director told me that he just knew I was a “very bad boy” and wanted me to come to his hotel so that he could give me a spanking! Hahahaha WTF?!?!?!?! I’m not joking!

The worst! I was attacked in my sleep with a baseball bat and nearly killed one night. I was very lucky to fight my way out of it and stay alive. It was found out later that a Homosexual man had been stalking me, and knowing that I was straight, he knew I wouldn’t be with him. So he breaks in to my apartment and tried to beat the shit out of me in my sleep so he could rape me. Believe it or not, my dead grandmother came to me in a dream and told me I was in danger and must awaken immediately. I awoke to find some burly dude in a plaid shirt and a scarf over his face getting ready to crack me in my sleep with a Hank Aarron. Remember the movie A Fish called Wanda? Well, that’s right, a Gay Jesse James had come to fuck me up in the middle of the night Goddammmit! I’m shaking right now just typing this out… Looking back I find it funny, ridiculous, unbelievable, and quite horrific.

In the words of the falling horse on Wren and Stimpe, “No, I don’t think I liked it. I didn’t like it at all”.

Now, as a fashion photographer, I work with Homosexuals on a regular basis. I socialize with them on a regular basis. But the thought of being hit on by one, or having sex with one is completely repulsive to me. You might even say I fear it.

So am I a Homophobe or not?

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies

There’s no real way to say whether you are or not (considering that it’s not something with definable boundaries), but I’m pretty sure most reasonable people wouldn’t call that homophobia. Sure, generally when people feel “gross” about getting hit on by gay people, I think “Get over it! If you say no, they’ll move on.” And I don’t think the “orgy room” example is appropriate as that’s an outlier (and I’m fairly sure you’re aware of that).

However, in this case (assuming all statements are true) it is objectively clear why that would make you feel gross. That’s a LOT. More than I’ve ever heard. Honestly, I would give you props for just being civil around gay men, let alone friends with them. Cause…seriously…after all that…damn. isn’t it Ren & Stimpy?

If I hadn’t had very close Homosexual friends who watched my children grow up, I may indeed have less tolerance for them, considering. But I’ve had a lot of great times with Gay friends, and been there for them when some get sick, very sick.

I know it’s not a black or white issue. I know that people can be crazy and kind, and it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. But regardless, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t watch for, and am wary of, the seductive eye when dealing with Homosexual strangers.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies So if a woman is raped or almost raped, she should be repulsed or terrified by the idea of all men, or ever sleeping with another man again? You can’t let some bad experienced shape your perception of an entire group.

Do you have any idea how many scary/disgusting encounters I’ve had with men? By now, I should hate them all. But I don’t – because I know they aren’t all the same.

Yeah I get it. Some women hold all men accountable, and some don’t. Those that do, shouldn’t. But even those that don’t, may tend to keep their guard up more than they used to.

@DrasticDreamer So if a woman is raped or almost raped, she should be repulsed or terrified by the idea of all men, or ever sleeping with another man again? You can’t let some bad experienced shape your perception of an entire group.

Okay…

(1) I would like to see you say that very thing to a woman…because I feel like if the situation would have been a woman disclosing an account of a rape and saying how she can still be friends with men but can’t imagine having sex with them and now is wary if they approach her sexually, it might have been approached with less judgment. I doubt that it would have even been said at all.

(2) This is objectively even more reasonable a response. He’s wary of sexual approaches by gay men, but he’s heterosexual and never felt desire to have sex with men. It’s as if the woman in the above example was both a lesbian AND a “virgin” (in the heterosexual sense).

I’m amazed someone experiencing all of that has been able to recover SO well. I wish more people would approach their relations with others as reasonably.

@RealEyesRealizeRealLies Yeah, don’t you hate it when you get constantly hit on by men? Me too.

“No, I don’t think I liked it. I didn’t like it at all”.

“Hate” is such a harsh word you know.