Parents: Would you encourage your children to participate in an organization similar to Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts but that allowed any child to be a member and integrated values and activities of both organizations?

Of course that kind of an organization is much better than ones where they separate the sexes but I would think that, obviously because I don’t consider men and women to exist on different planets. I would encourage them to join such an organization over one where only one sex is allowed but it would have to depend on what values and activities the organizations stands for, as well. I would hope this organization didn’t care for gender presentation either and accepted genderfluid or trans kids.

Hmm, you bring up an interesting point. It so happens that, aside from the name, there is nothing in the Boy Scout Handbook (or rules elsewhere for that matter) that says the scouts have to be one gender or the other. I knew an influential parent back when I was in Boy Scouts who was encouraging girls to sign up for Boy Scouts. Naturally this flies in the face of about a century of Boy Scouting tradition, so no girls ever joined our troop.

Venture Scouts are a good compromise between Boy and Girl Scouts. Venture Scouts can be male or female and engage in many of the same activities that Boy and Girl Scouts do individually.

To (finally) answer your question, a new organization would have to gain significant popularity and prestige before I would sign my kids up for it. That would ensure that it works and that people are invested in making it better and the experience beneficial for my kids.

To finish, I’ve attended a summer camp for the last couple of summers where the boys and girls camps are very separated, which used to bother me. I came to realize though that young children and especially teenagers actually feel more comfortable and aren’t as distracted when they’re separated by gender than if they aren’t. There’s less drama about who likes who, for example.

If there was a program similar to the scouts, I would look at the differences between the two and go from there. I would also ask my son which one he would prefer. While I don’t think boys and girls need to be separated, I could understand a young child wanting to be with other kids that are the same sex as them. I know right now, my son prefers playing games with other boys. He has some friends that are girls, but if I ask him who he wants to go play with, he almost always mentions one of the boys. I’m sure that will change as he gets older.

Actually, there already is one. It is called Venture Scouting.

Venture crews are co-ed and are for older teen age scouts. They do some great stuff including high adventure activities.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx

@YoBob beat me to it. The Venture Scouts are just that…they incorporate all the fun and adventure of scouting but allow girls and boys to participate together. Most Venture groups I have met are pretty sparse and far and few in between and require a lot more effort on the individual scouts themselves to operate and organize. A lot less demand on the Scouts as they usually meet only once or twice a month.

I would love that. I do hope when they go camping that they seperate the two. LOL

If it is as discriminatory as the boy scouts/hitler youth, then absolutely not.

@ragingloli Come on already! For only $10.00 a year it’s the best value a kid can get and the brainwashing is no extra charge!

I would really love that. Hell, I’d join that right now if they let adults in. I wanna learn how to whittle and crap…

@Frenchfry I can see that, but just know that every time in school/camp they separated us by gender so we wouldn’t have sex, my girlfriend and I would make a point of getting together just to make a point. No one ever found out unless we told them.

I was a boy scout, and I found some of it hurtful, but most of it very helpful. You can learn a lot of skills there, and the overall message is postive and good.
However, little league baseball in my town is open to boys and girls, and each team might have one or two girls. If that translated to scouting, I don’t think it would be wise.

@filmfann: I’m a little confused. Are you saying you don’t think it would be wise for there to be both male and female children in the same scouting organization?

@camertron: Thank you! I had no idea such an organization existed!

@KatawaGrey I posted a link to this in my question about Boy Scouts earlier, but in case you missed it…

There’s a scouting group now called Earth Scouts. It is for boys and girls, ages 3 to 17 and seems to focus on caring for people and the planet as a whole. I’m going to look into it further. It is newer than Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, and isn’t as widespread. For example, there are numerous Boy and Girl Scout troops just in our town, but only a few Earth Scout troops in the entire state. The website gives information on starting an Earth Scout troop in your area, but I haven’t had a chance to look into it yet. It looks like someone who doesn’t want to organize a troop can register their family and do the activities on their own.

I’m actually going to research the time needed to maybe organize a group like this in our area. An at-home job could potentially take up quite a bit of my time keeping my fingers crossed! so I don’t know if I can commit to something like this right now. If I can, I think it would be a great alternative to Boy Scouts. My daughter is a Girl Scout and absolutely loves it, thanks to the incredible troop leaders. I don’t think she’d want to defect!

@KatawaGrey I am saying it would be great to have an organization, properly chaperoned, with a healthy mix of both boys and girls. If it is 15 boys and 2 girls, there will be trouble.

Only if it also meant that children were not excluded based on religious grounds too. The Scouting organisation is overwhelmingly Christian and although it does accept believers of other religions, it does not accept atheists.

Or agnostics.

@downtide and @MissAusten Actually, that is not true. While it is true that a belief in something larger than ourselves (that we generally call God for the sake of conversation) is a core value, the Boy Scouts count members from pretty much every religion you can name. Additionally I have known Scouts who are agnostic.

It is true that there is a requirement along the path towards becoming an eagle scout to acknowledge a belief in “God”. However, there is no requirement for what form that belief takes. Even the most avowed atheists often acknowledge forces greater than themselves, whether it be nature, the totality of the universe, or whatever other symbol they are comfortable using to define their role in the cosmos.

@YoBob The very fact that they require a belief in god (any god) is what makes them anti-atheist. Atheists do not believe in any gods at all. I believe in the universe but I can’t use the name “god” for what is basically a vast collection of galaxies comprised mostly of hydrogen.

@YoBob Then someone needs to edit the Wikipedia entry for BSA, because it specifically states “BSA membership policy also excludes known or avowed atheists or agnostics from all traditional programs.”

This site also clearly states that atheists and agnostics are not accepted as members or leaders.

So while they are accepting and inclusive of many religions, it appears members are expected to claim some religion and some “God” as their own. Otherwise, they are not welcome as Boy Scouts.

All I am trying to communicate here is that “God” is a rather abstract term.

Failing to believe that there is a guy that looks like Charlton Heston sitting up on a cloud waiting to smite the sinners and reward the righteous does not preclude one from being a scout. As stated, I know agnostics who are scouts. Being agnostic does not necessarily mean that one totally dismisses the possibility of a spiritual part of our nature that lies beyond our comprehension. It simply means that one reserves judgment on that which they do not posses the faculties to prove or disprove.

@downtide: I don’t know, Hydrogen is pretty awe-inspiring. I’d worship that.

@YoBob: Would the scouts take a self-proclaimed Pagan?

There are those who would consider my beliefs to be pagan, although in reality they are more Toist than anything else.

The requirement is a belief in God, which, as I have stated, is a rather abstract term.

Most pagans I know have no problem acknowledging our spiritual nature. In fact, many of them regularly practice (benevolent) ritual magic, which, at the end of the day, is really just an exercise in the practical application of the spiritual aspect of our beings and is in concept and deed no different from the rituals performed in more main stream religions.

I just discussed this with our Scoutmaster and we do have and have had known pagans in our Troop one is now an Eagle. My boys are ½ Jewish and in all cases they just have to acknowledge a faith in a God or that God does exists in some form or another. My 2 boys can and will earn the Religious award for both Judism and Christianity how cool is that?

“just have to acknowledge a faith in a God or that God does exists in some form or another.”
“just”. I suppose you do not mind religious discrimination.

@Cruiser that is way cool! I think this is the first time I have heard of anyone earning more than one religious award. Since they are signed off by the corresponding religious organization most folks are kind of tied to just one.

We currently have an avowed agnostic in our troop.

@ragingloli That is a silly comment as IMO atheism or Agnosticism are not religions so no discrimination there. As @YoBob and I both have pointed out the ranks of the Boy Scouts are full of non-believers and even they will accept the notion of “A” God in order to advance in rank.

Consider if you will within the definitions of discrimination laid out in this thread the irony or discriminatory nature of our countries Pledge of Allegiance every American including atheist and agnostics who at least once has said the words “One Nation Under God”?? The very same pledge that is the foundation of the Boy Scout program and that Scouts pledge every meeting? I really fail to see what all the fuss is about here.

@YoBob and @Cruiser You’re actually kind of illustrating why I’m torn about my own son joining Cub Scouts. Yes, his own scout leaders may not push the issue of religion or even care if someday he were to openly come out as gay. I’ve read that individual troops or chapters sometimes ignore the policy of the Boy Scout’s National Council when it comes to the boys themselves having to believe in a God and be (or pretend to be) heterosexual. I’m fairly confident that in this predominantly liberal area, the Scouts are not summarily kicked out if they decide to be atheist or are openly gay.

However, it’s still written very clearly right on the National Council’s website (which I linked to above) that there is no place for atheists, agnostics, and homosexuals in the BSA. That is what rubs me the wrong way. At the local level, maybe it isn’t enforced. At the national level, the BSA is spending a lot of money fighting lawsuits to resist becoming more inclusive. I don’t like the idea that any costs or dues associated with Cub Scouts or money raised from their fundraisers would also contribute to the National Council fighting tooth and nail to continue their discriminatory policies.

While we never had homosexual boys or atheists in my troop, I know they existed in troops in our area. The scoutmasters of those troops never seemed to care that much what their scouts’ religious views were nor what their sexual orientation was. So even though the National Council may officially require scouts to believe in God and exhibit heterosexual behavior does not mean they can’t join scouts and go far. The National Council actually doesn’t have that much power in my opinion. It really just depends on the views, strict or accommodating, of the scoutmaster.

I would encourage everyone to also realize that many of the leaders in the scouting movement are baby boomers or older and grew up during a time when homosexuality was considered weird (even a disease) and atheism wasn’t really on the radar. They also, I can imagine, are afraid to change their stance because it will make them look like they just gave up. It’s only a matter of time before the BSA is infiltrated with younger, more open-minded people who will overturn the rules of their narrow-minded forbears.

@camertron But why join an organization that makes you hide who you are? And with all due respect, it’s the Boy Scouts, not the Bilderberg Group. Older people do tend to be more intolerant of homosexuality. That doesn’t make it right, and that doesn’t mean we should put up with it. The KKK was really big during a time when pretty much everyone was really racist. But it wasn’t right, so people stopped joining.

@papayalily I never said it was right, in fact I don’t agree with it at all. My previous post only expressed a possibility as to why the BSA thinks the way it thinks. I don’t know if that’s the way it really is, but it certainly seems like a possibility. I belong to a religion that has some of the same views about homosexuality because the congregations tend to be made up of older people. I don’t like it any more than the next person. It’s unfair, and yes, it does make you hide who you are, or at least feel persecuted.

It does however, mean that we have to put up with it. As much as we may not agree with the views of the National Council, they are the guys in charge and we can’t change that. The only thing we can do is support an organization that is 95% awesome and not get so wrapped up in how offended we feel all the time. Things will change – that’s just natural progress.