At what point do you consider something to be unnatural (as opposed to natural)?

I actually had an interesting discussion with some of my philosophy buddies about this tonight.

We determined that everything that isn’t supernatural is natural, including man-made things.

Why? Because humans are a species of animal. Animals build homes, sometimes use tools, etc, and those homes and tools are still considered natural. Human creations are just more complex versions of “natural” animal creations and are therefore, by extension, natural as well.

Therefore, the idea of something being “unnatural” is just a concept. Everything is either natural or supernatural, and the supernatural likely doesn’t exist.

@Sarcasm ” because only humans take part in it.” This is entirey untrue. Homosexal bhaviour abounds in the animal kingdom. I’ve seen some startling footage of jungle chimpanzee tribs making war on each other, carrying out raids with well coordinated tactics.
You took it somewhere interesting for me at the beginnng and at the end. One could almost think that you had been reading Redfield. Can you elaborate on where you were headed with this? Decide what? In what way?
@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard Yeah, but it’s kind of addressing two things; It is natural to find shelter, when did it become natural to create shelter?
Then; While the act of creating shelter may or may not be natural, the branch torn from the tree is a step from natural. Right? But maybe not so the branch that fell from the tree. Rope made from plant fibers to hold shelter together? One step from natural, maybe, in the weaving of the fibers another in the use to which it was put?

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard – Agreed. To my mind, everything in the universe is “natural”. It can be useful to talk about how a given system would look if humans didn’t interfere with it, but human interference isn’t “unnatural”.

@Trillian – Also, Bonobos do something called “Penis Fencing”.

@Trillian Sorry, I didn’t mean that I think only humans do it. But it seems like those who argue it’s unnatural do believe that it’s an exclusively human behavior
I hadn’t heard about chimpanzee tribes going to war, interesting. Although after posting, I did think a bit about insect battles, ant colonies attacking intruders, or wasps invading beehives.
I just see people trying to keep close to “nature”, whether it’s by buying 100% natural foods, clothing and cleaning supplies, or if it’s by opposing IVF and homosexuality.
There’s a desire to shun that which they declare to be “unnatural” but I never understood what the criteria for being “unnatural” actually is. It seems like it’s too fluid of a word to have any serious meaning. But there are some wise jellies here who I figure can set me straight (That’s the natural way, right?).

And who’s Redfield? I checked Wikipedia, but there are 14 different famous Redfields in there.

But your term “natural” is at once so broad and all encompassing… Water was once our “natural” element. Before we are born we breathe liquid naturally. When I first saw Brendan Frasier dance many years ago, I though “Wow, this guy is a natural”. meaning, I suppose, that he possessed some talent that made his dance steps look easy, like he dances as other people walk.
I think the attempts to be more “natural” when applied to our society today are linked to a spiriual lack, or hunger. Not recognizing it, people turn to the idea of nature as desirable, rather than saying it is natural to need something outside of myself to believe in.” That and the recognition that we have possibly moved too far away from she who nurtures us and we know it on some deep, instinctual level. We are entirely dempendent on technology to stay alive and we all know deep down that if the trucks were to stop running for any length of time we’d all be pretty screwed.
What must knowing that do to us?
Look, I’d really like to get into this with you, but I have to go to bed.
James Redfield wrote The Celestine Prophecy. And a few since that are quite thought provoking. Or just provoking to you lot of rational, nothing can be real if it isn’t scientifically proven folk. ;-)

Agree with @Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard and @Hobbes

@Trillian As above, creating shelter is natural. Weaving fibers is natural. How can it not be natural? It happens in nature (i.e., WE do it). Humans are a product of nature, and everything humans do is a product of nature.

@Sarcasm People who say unnatural usually mean something that is harmful and manmade. The problem is when people start using natural/unnatural as a justification for something that is good or bad, without actually understanding why. E.g., organic fruit is good because they aren’t sprayed with pesticides, not because they are “natural”. This of course, prompts one to ask the question, “what do you mean by unnatural?”, at which point you realize those people don’t actually know what they are talking about.

How about this definition: the quality of being natural or based on natural principles

Death is natural for example. Immortality in our universe is unnatural. Because entropy is relentless.

Most things we do and see are a combination of both. It is natural for teeth to rot and fall out, it is unnatural to brush them, it is natural to get a disease and die before you are 40, it is unnatural to use medical care to prolong your life. It is natural to go from home to some other place, it is unnatural to wear shoes to walk there or a car to drive there.

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we’re really high and came to think about this with my friend. After a discussion we came to the result that everything is natural.
The pure concept of something beeing unnatural cannot exist without being natural, because we are the ones who created it and we are natural.