Skipping over stuff. Though I see a lot of good comments.
@iamthemob “I repeatedly stated that I didn’t necessarily think you were prejudiced, or ignorant – just that the statement made initially can easily be interpreted as being so, and makes it difficult to respond in a reasoned manner”
Here’s the bottom line, I have beat beating my brow defending the giving and withholding of respect according to merit and you turn a round a say things like:
“You just argued that it makes more sense to be prejudiced against someone who believes in a god than in someone because of their race or sexuality.”
You can’t compare my criticism of religion with gaybashers and then claim that you never meant I was prejudiced. To have and defend a prejudiced view is to be prejudiced. You can’t think my views are prejudiced without thinking I am prejudiced. You can’t back out of that just because you can’t argue with my explanation of why my criticism and bashing is not prejudiced.
And it’s simply disingenuous to back off from the accusation that:
“This is the essence of prejudice – reducing an ideology to a statement.”
and switch over to claim that, you didn’t think I was prejudiced, but that:
“You do mis-characterize, though:”
But that won’t stop me from rebutting that too. I like arguments where I can reference undeniable evidence.
I asked “Does it make sense to think one or more invisible supernatural entities control the whole world, read minds, and love the smell of burnt animals?”
1. God is an Invisible, Supernatural Entity
You argue that is a mis-characterization because God was at one point a burning bush among other things. Perhaps you were grasping for the mist often personified as God on Mt. Sinai? If I had said burning bush in my statement you would have crucified me for cherry picking an absurd characterization of God. And you would be kinda justified, deifying a burning bush is was crazier than being invisible. Plus, the burning bush doesn’t represent how people usually see (or don’t see) God, like it or not most Christians do seem to think of YHWH as an invisible, immaterial entity. And as far as I can tell there is no difference between that and an invisible supernatural entity. But then you suggest the very notion of invisibility is invalid saying:
“Are atoms invisible? Not necessarily, it’s just that we’ve only recently been able to perceive them. Is time invisible? Not necessarily, it’s just that we’ve recently begun to understand exactly how it is to be perceived.”
Here’s the thing. Atoms are for all practical purposes invisible, you’re confusing detection with visibility. God is neither visible nor detectable making him both invisible and undetectable. Time is a measurement not an entity so it doesn’t even make sense speak of its visibility. I can’t see an ampere or taste a parabola either, that doesn’t mean invisibility or tastelessness are useless terms.
2. God is a mind-reader
You question the definition of mind-reader to get God off that hook.
“Whether or not God reads minds depends on how we look at what this means.”
I’m going use the usual definition of the word
mind reading – the ability to discern the thoughts of others without the normal means of communication, esp. by means of a preternatural power.
So can God do this? According the Bible he can [1] [2] [3]. Honestly God’s mind reading ability is central to Christianity. Prayer would a futile activity if he couldn’t hear your silent message to him. That or maybe you think he can only hear prayers when they are spoken out loud? That would be pretty shitty for all the silent prayers. All those moments of silence wasted for believers. Once again my claim about god is what believers themselves say.
3. God Loves the Smell of Burning Animals
You don’t even seem to want to address this one.
“Who knows? But where are the ritual sacrifices if this is deeply held these days, I ask.”
Well Orthodox Jews do, A. J. Jacobs participates in an animal sacrifice in New York as part of his attempt to live the Bible literally. He doesn’t do it on his own, his advising Rabbi takes him to a traditional annual ritual where plenty of other obedient Jews buy livestock (goats I think) and pay someone to kill and burn them for God on their behalf. They do it, as ancient Jews did, because it says in their holy book that God likes the smell of burning animals. Christians tend to ignore what God demands in the Old Testament. This is because Christianity is a faith based religion while Judaism is a ritual based religion.
But lets get it from the horse’s mouth shall we? A Bible Gateway search has 37 unique instances of the phrase “aroma pleasing to the Lord”, they are all about burning animals. I’m assuming the Bible doesn’t always use the same phrase when referring to God’s enjoyment of the smell of burnt animals, but I figure 37 examples is enough to show I wasn’t mis-characterizing YHWH.
“This is the problem…the attempt to focus the questions still on the most simple and arguably boring aspects of the question, and then sitting back and feeling satisfied. It is both arrogant, and at the same time makes the opponent seem exactly how one has made the argument – simple and boring.”
I don’t see anything simple or boring about defending a few simple observations about religion against claims that I’m just bashing religion. I’m sorry if my refusal to have my references to verifiable religious claims written off as religious bashing comparable to hate speech bores you. Clearly you think facts are far too banal to be relevant to rational discussion. That must be the case since your response to my list of religious claims I confirmed above was to call them opinions devoid of reason:
”How is this an opinion arrived at with reason, when it is an absurd reduction?”
I am a person that believes that it is always preferable to believe true things rather than false things. This is why I am opposed to systems of thought, like religion, that eschew rational scrutiny and appeal to faith. It is my conviction that facts matter and that no idea is immune to criticism that that keeps my spitting fire when people tell me that it’s not right for me to criticize what they will not.
Gratuitous quotes:
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion(s), they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”—John Adams
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”—George Orwell
Composing members:
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